Discussion "Free will" Linkedin-group

Published on www.acadun.com

The Netherlands

30th January 2014

 

Discussion Linkedin: “Think tank” group

Tittle: “What does free will mean?”

 

L1: Freedom to travel without obstruction or any geographical boundary .

L2: No will is free, except God's. So it means God's will. It is upto individual, where s/he finds this God who has free will. Perhaps you yourself as pure conscious principle!

Dear L1 
As this is not possible, it means Free will is not possible. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L2, 
Where is this God that s/he could or can find? What is pure consciousness principle? 
AAU

Dear AAU, 
If you ask a question "Who Am I". There are chances that you will find that you are NOT confined to body, mind, ego, intellect, country, society, designation, profession, color, gender etc but beyond that. You can try it (if you have not tried that earlier). If you are real searcher of "free will" and struggle hard to know about it, you may end-up experiencing that you are Pure Consciousness. More you search it more unfoldment will happen automatically. 

Regards L2

L1: Hi * AAU 

IF the Spirit is strong - the body is not an issue.

AAU: Dear L1, 
The spirit may be strong, but the regulations present at geographical boundaries become an issue to the body. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L2,
When you are NOT confined to body, mind, ego, intellect, country, society, designation, profession, colour, gender etc., I am not saying that I am confined, how could pure consciousness be experienced by the real searcher if he is NOT the ego, mind or intellect? How could the real searcher know more unfoldment if he is NOT the ego, mind, or intellect? You say if you ask a question “Who Am I” you would find that you are beyond body, mind, ego, intellect, country, society, designation, profession, colour, gender etc. Is the division between who you are and who you are not, actual or just an idea?
AAU

L3: Free will = choice

L4: Hi L3, Well said "Free will = choice" - I take the opportunity here to add to what you said, we have choice to do Right OR Wrong and for that is it not better to know about Right and Wrong from the right source the only unchanged scripture? - who do you think should decide for us Right and Wrong? because for example suppose when the choice should have been between milk and wine, for some it might changed to beer and wine?

Dear L3, 
Free will is NOT = to Choice, because they have different meanings. Free will is the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; it is the ability to act at one’s own discretion, whereas choice is an act of choosing between two or more possibilities. 
AAU

L4: Hi L3, It is interesting to notice how things are changing, do you think there will be a time when we will be told even what to think in our own minds?

AAU: Dear L4, 
Define right independently without making reference to wrong. You find that you are unable to find a meaning to right without dependence on wrong. This means that right is depended on wrong for its meaning. Wrong donates meaning to right and similarly right donates meaning to wrong. Right and wrong do not have meaning independently. If wrong did not exist you will not be able to do right. Therefore you did not choose to do right you picked both right and wrong. 
AAU

L3: @AAU, it is merely your opinion that free will is not = to choice. It is my opinion that I always have choice and that is how I exercise my free will - I choose how I experience life and how I perceive it...........free will. I am not forced to do or decide anything. 

Now if you are referring to a religious definition then you should have stated that in the original question. Are you wanting to debate predestination versus free will? 
Perhaps you had something else in mind, but to ask a question and then to dismiss someone's perspective does not really draw dialogue. Please elaborate on your position.

L1: If You have a " Spiritual Passport " all systems GO !

L4: AAU, Thank you for your comments. Brother, in order to know right and wrong I think it is better to read the 4th Revelations from our Creator who decide right and wrong for us. HE is the only one to make someone understand otherwise no matter how much we try we will not be able to make anyone understand, for your information, I have not managed to convince a single person in last 40 years that I have been trying but I did not give up as I know that someday someone might start to think about Creator after reading what I write. I am happy when someone ask me a question, which means that person might be reading what I write and just might start to think about the one and only Creator. - Brother, you also said to me; "Therefore you did not choose to do right you picked both right and wrong" - Now, my question to you is; How well do you know me to say, I also picked wrong?

L4: Brother AAU, When a baby first start to hold food with hands they try to put it in mouth meaning they try to eat with hand is free will that is natural but when that baby will grow and know free will means either to eat with spoons or sticks then do you agree that the meaning of free will get changed?

AAU: Dear L4,

response to: "Hi L3, It is interesting to notice..."

Everything changes every moment. This is a fact of life. If there is a time when we would be told what to think, it means that somebody would have told the first man on earth what to think? If so who could have told that somebody what to tell the first man what to think? Find out how man began to think?
Regards, AAU

AAU: Dear L3, 
Here is an elaboration of the question. Please get back. I am referring only to facts of life and not religion. It is quite apparent that free will indicates that man is the doer, who can choose. Man can do what he wants and logically it cannot be proved he cannot. A logical insight into the matter would prove the contrary. Man can prove his free will by providing a cause to elicit an effect. For example, man can say ‘I will move the chair from here to there’ and moves it too, thereby establishing himself with free will as the cause capable of bringing about an effect. Agreed man who has the free will is the cause to bring about an effect, but what about the chair? Is it a cause or an effect? It is both a cause and an effect. The cause of the chair is wood. The cause of wood is atoms, which are basically light. The effect of the atoms is also the chair. Therefore, the cause and effect for the chair is the same, which are atoms or light. 
Similarly, the cause and effect of man is the same too, which are atoms or basically light. Also similarly, the cause and effect of the world, man, mind, including free will, vegetation, animal kingdom, space and time is atoms or light. But strangely enough the cause of light is not known, although its effects are. Therefore, it means that the world and its effects are light, which is without a cause. This can only mean that the cause of free will and choice can never be known. It can only be said that two of light’s effects is free will and choice. The effects of light, which are just about everything that exists, whose cause can never be known, are indeed a miracle and a mystery. They are present and yet not present. Man needs to ponder how real his free will and choice could be. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L1, 
Try crossing geographical boundaries with a spiritual passport. If by spiritual passport you mean a valid passport and visa. Understand it is available only to the fortunate and not to the less fortunate. It would mean that free will is for the fortunate only. Would this be free will of mankind? 
AAU

AAU: Dear L4 
When a baby first starts to hold food with hands and tries put it in mouth and tries to eat it, it is natural spontaneous, unpredictable and uncontrollable movement. Similarly, it only means that when that grown baby as a man puts it in his mouth and eats, it is still natural spontaneous, unpredictable and uncontrollable movement. But the grown up man takes credit by claiming the movement as an act of his free will. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L4, 
Man has no proof that the creator has defined anything or that a creator exists. It is merely man’s belief. All that man can say with proof is that only light exists without cause. I have not said that you picked wrong, I have only stated that when man makes the choice of right he has not made a choice, but has merely picked both right and wrong. 
AAU

L4: Brother AAU, I do not need to find out how the first man on earth began to think. I was fortunate that my late father taught me how to think about Creator seeing the wonders of HIS creation, still very present in this modern world. - For example there was a time when it was normal for a man to get married to a lady but now it is also normal for a man to get married to another man. - Brother, the way things are changing do you think there be a time when it will be a crime for a man to get married to a lady?

AAU: Dear L4, 
If it happens man will come to know, because man has come to know all that has happened only after it has happened and not before it happens, and he has not made anything happen either. That is why you cannot find the first person who has been told what to think. The first man on earth has come to think and later to know his thinking. Thinking has happened to man and man has not made thinking happen to him. Understand everything changes every moment? Do you know what a moment is where the change happens? 
AAU

L4: Dear AAU, Adam (pbuh) was the first man and also a prophet who was told names of every thing else Allah created on this planet and in this universe, Adam got the names and also introduction with each of HIS creation I don't know if you believe in this fact. Adam's 2 sons had a friendly fight and one died, the one that was alive did not know what to do with the dead body and then he saw 2 crows fighting and one crow died, the crow that was alive dug a grave and put the dead body and covered it with earth and Adam's son did the same, since then human being started to bury our dead. The 3 main religion of books still follow the same and see, how interesting it is that HE still kept crows alive for HIS believers. Brother what I am saying may not sound true to you but over a Billion people on this planet believe this!

L4: Dear AAU, Yes I understand everything changes every moment along with the motion of the Sun that is heading at a very high speed towards a particular direction for a period of time Allah Commanded the Sun and all other planet of this solar system including our earth is also moving with the Sun which we can not feel as we can not feel inside a plane when moving at a high speed and we can still walk. This is the real change! - Were you talking about this change? if not I would like to know what you were talking about? - Thanks!

L5: Being free means I & you can write what we like on here - at no cost.

L7: Free will: 
1. Freedom to be able to understand various choices available. (Education, health etc.) 
2. Freedom to be able to choose, the choice, I consider best for me. 
3. Freedom to exercise the choice, without hindrance from anybody. 
4. Freedom not to be harassed by somebody else making a choice that infringes upon my freedom. 
Thus absolute free will cannot exist in today's world.

AAU: Dear L5, 
Free will means the power of acting without the constraint of necessity. Free will is the ability to act at one’s own discretion. Discretion means behaving or speaking in such a way as to avoid causing offence or revealing confidential information. Could I or you write what we like here without any cost, freely? If so we would be acting within constraints, meaning limitation and restriction. Therefore, we would or could face consequences for being free. Is this being free? 
AAU

L3: @AAU, thank you for your clarity. I appreciate it very much..........dialogue can now happen as you have given a reference point for your initial question. 
Above in your post addressed to me you say, "The effects of light, which are just about everything that exists, whose cause can never be known, are indeed a miracle and a mystery. They are present and yet not present. Man needs to ponder how real his free will and choice could be." 

Can you explain for me why man needs to ponder how real his free will and choice is? In many places in the developed world there is an attitude of entitlement, which leads to people not taking responsibility for their actions or how their actions impact others as well as blaming others for their life circumstances. Much of what happens to us is beyond our control, but we do have control over our attitudes and choices. To me it is imperative that people take responsibility for their actions and reactions. 

So AAU, to me your question is philosophical. Knowing this helps immensely in the dialogue.

AAU: Dear L3, 
What entitlement does man have over his life? Man needs to ponder how real his free will is, so that he may understand why he is not the doer as the enlightened sages have proclaimed. He has come into life without any entitlement. If much of what happens to us is beyond our control, much of what happens to others too would be beyond their control. So who or what controls much of what happens to anyone? My question would not appear philosophical to you if you absolutely understand what does free will mean? If you say we do have control over our attitudes and choices why cannot the choice of entitlement be controlled? How could my question or explanation be philosophical? They are factual as light is a fact and not a philosophical entity. If you wish to understand who or what controls much of what happens to us or do we really do anything; or what does free will mean; or what does control mean, they are huge topics and cannot be written in this space. They are available in www.acadun.com. 
AAU

L6: Man is not born or die by his own free-willy…Free Will is an illusion/reflection a man experiences due to the Divine Will…which can not be defeated and I would personally call that Will a Real Will…no half ideation of will can be called Free-Will. 
Man is dependent on his surroudings n conditioned by nature and mostly is reactive/passive in nature until man surrenders his will for the great Will.

L8: Free will is unbounded thinking. You can be completely free only within the realms of your mind. In every other spaces one is inevitably bounded 

If you want to know what free will, begin by indulging in free thinking, which is also free. 

Get beyond the cobweb of faiths, beliefs, traditions, and prejudices and look at the knowledge passed on to you right in the eyes and check if your free will is willing to accept it. 

Then, you will not only be able to exercise free will but also preserve it happily

AAU: Dear L6, 
How could man surrender an illusory free will to the great will which is real? Because, if free will were illusory, man would be illusory too, because if man were real, the division between man and illusory free would be just an idea and not actual. I am not saying man and free will are real. But if man were able to surrender his free will to the great will, could the division between illusory man and the great will be actual or would it be just an idea? 
AAU

AAU: Dear L8, 
Thinking happens to man and man cannot control his thinking. Free will implies it is not bounded. If it were bounded it would not be called free. To accept or not to accept happens and is not due to free will. If man could check or control if his free will is willing or not willing, it would only mean that free will is not free. 
AAU

L3: @AAU, you are right in that these are huge topics. Light is fact, source of said light is not fact so that does make this a philosophical discussion. 
I have not visited your website and will when I have the time and head space to dialogue with you.

L7: Dear AAU, 
I think it is the responsibility of Government (society?), to provide the opportunity to each citizen, to attain education and good health, so s/he learns to be able to look at opportunities available and more importantly, be able to evaluate these opportunities, so he can determine the best as per his necessity and constraints and thus exercise his will. This is real development and growth. You are right to the extent that probably in no society today, such facilities are available and so one cannot really even know the extent of his will, forget about exercising it.

L6: Dear AAU, 
To me idea was simple to accept when I determined to do something it never happened 100% the way it was meant and most of the time it didn't happen at all but "What happens" in all circumstances does happen without any doubt of not happening it. 
Most of the time the feeling was as if I've been used by a plan that is happening to everyone and everything not just me. 
Now question is what is between an illusionary Man Vs the Divinity, it is a manifestation phenomenon between two poles Nothingness & Absoluteness or Unreal & Real and man is a vessel and as well as take out of this phenomenon which is called Perfected Man or the First Form of Excellence ( As He created Adam in His own Reflection ). 
So the reflection is always dependent on the Real Image since it's no ordinary reflection it is beauty with truth that becomes mystery. 
Reflection gotta Surrender to it's Pure Nature on whats it is created.

AAU: Dear L3, 
The source of light is not a fact as the source of light cannot be known. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L7, 
Everything happens to man and man does not do it, though he believes he does. Growth and development too happens. What is available and not available also happens, though man believes it is up to him to make it available. As every doing happens to man where is the question of exercising a free will? 
AAU

L11: I`m not sure - I`m married with an active mother in law. what does this mean??

L4: Well said L6, "Man is not born or die by his own free-will…Free Will is an illusion / reflection a man experiences due to the Divine Will.." - Brother, how many people really believe in this simple Truth that we do not Die by our own free-will? - It is not difficult to understand this simple truth, when we think about death and life which is not at all according to our own free-will but The Will of Allah, GOD of the Heavens and Earth but how many of us really think about Death? - Do you agree that it seems all are running after this world as if this is the permanent place, when people die everyday without own free-will?

L6: L4, Only believers of the Truth not the free-will :) My creator know me better than myself. No wonder Acceptance is true bravery.

AAU: Dear L11, 
It means you are married with an active mother in law. 
AAU

L7: Since, I and He are one, He allows me to do my free will. After all it is said God helps those who help themselves. I enjoy free will, within the constraints of society, God puts no constraints. He is there to help all 24*7

L8: @ AAU 

One might not be able to control one's thinking but it certainly remains conditioned by faiths, beliefs and prejudices. How one is brought up also makes a lot of difference in the way one ends up thinking as an adult. 

Not everyone is ready to question what they are told. There are gullible minds out there who accept theories and dogmas without ever bothering to verify these on their own, since they often remain overwhelmed by the presumed power of the author of such dogmas or theories. Adding to it is the dogma infallibility that makes questioning blasphemous. 

People's minds generally remain conditioned and in extreme cases indoctrinated. Unless people learn break free from the factors that condition the mind, there can be no free thinking and without free thinking there can be no free will

AAU: Dear L7, 
What would you require to do your free will, without which you will be unable to do your free will?

L9: I would have to offer what I know from the Hare Krsna belief. And, this is something that came up in another discussion.

We believe God is invisible to us because we would have to qualify to see Him. God is allowing us to try and make our own decisions and figure everything out on our own. However, we may have trouble recognizing that God is the Supreme Controller and owner of everything.

I think that in other words, God has made things so complex we can at least believe very strongly that we are accomplishing so many things on our own. Perhaps this is how Maha Maya works. We also believe that in the spiritual world we are under the control of Yoga Maya.

I will try to present the Hare Krsna belief because that is my faith and belief. I apologize for my limitations and imperfections public or private. I will try to present personal experiences when I am able. I sometimes have to read in between the lines with Hare Krsna teachings, but will try to do so in accordance with what I know about the Hare Krsna teachings. I have been through many books and teachings with Hare Krsna. I first began adopting this faith when I was 18 years of age.

L4: It is very important to know the 4 Revelations and all the commandments messengers informed humanity otherwise how will one know the difference? - for example if some one does not know about Abraham (pbuh) and his teachings then that person will not know about the best friendly way to slaughter a cow or goat where as the animal is not afraid and do not understand what is going to happen and when it happens, blood flow out so fast that it does not feel the pain, it is like when we switch-off a rotating fan it still keeps on moving, similarly when the life go out the dead body moves due to contraction of mussels and bones. Is it true, food has influence on body mind actions and words?

L4: If some one does not know about Abraham (pbuh) and his teachings then that person will not know about the best friendly way to slaughter a goat or a cow when the animal is not afraid, do not understand what is going to happen and when it happens, blood flow out so fast that it does not feel the pain, it is like when we switch-off a rotating fan, it still keeps on rotating for a while, similarly when the life go out the body it still moves due to contraction of mussels and bones. Is it true, food has influence on our thoughts words behavior and actions?

L4: Following the unchanged 4th instruction manual for human being is the best way of life in the long run of our journey back home to Heaven when the 1st journey was in mother's womb, 2nd is this life on Earth and 3rd will be in our tomb! - food for thought?

L4: f someone think that the 3rd journey the life in tomb is not for me and stay busy with this world and do not do follow the 4th unchanged instructional manual then the 3rd journey may not be peaceful and reaching destination back to Heaven might be difficult!. - food for thought?

L7: @AAU - God's grace. Nothing else. And I think God's grace has always been with me.

AAU: Dear L8, 
The mind has been conditioned by life in the process of evolution. Man has not made conditioning happen to him. Conditioning has happened to man. He therefore cannot break the conditioning, as man cannot break the evolutionary process of life. Thinking therefore happens to man whether he likes it or not, and it is not up to his free will to think or not to think. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L9, 

What is a belief? 
AAU

L8: @ AAU,
Evolution has conditioned primarily the physiology of the brain and not the way the mind thinks.

That you and me think so differently does not mean that your mind has undergone a different evolutionary process than mine. Nor does it prove that all others who think differently from you in this thread had evolved differently.

We are all born in to this world with a blank brain in terms of knowledge. The reptilian brain is the only one which comes preprinted with survival instincts.

The rest of the brain gets filled with knowledge as we grow up. The knowledge that we acquire conditions the way we think further. If the brain is filled with wrong knowledge all thinking emanating from it will also wrong.

In fact, latest brain research shows that our brain actually thinks ahead of us based on the information, which is already available with it.

The way our brain functions is simply 'garbage in and garbage out'.

Your brain is not different from any of us here. The differences in our thinking solely depends upon the differences in our knowledge intake.

L10: The limit of freedom is not to be a nuisance to others.

L9: Thanks! 

"Belief" is about that part of existence that cannot be easily understood or simply cannot be understood. That is the belief I am referring to. 

I believe God is giving us freedom and free will or so it seems. Perhaps He has made things so complex we have difficulty not believing we have free will. In the Hare Krsna faith we call this Maha Maya or Yoga Maya. 

Thanks! Hare Krsna!

AAU: Dear L7 
What would you require to do any ordinary thing daily, without which you will be unable to do it? 
AAU

L12: Free will for me is when you are free to choose what you want to do, which path you want to take, comes down to right or wrong, again the right and wrong can be vague because right for one maybe wrong for the other. so we need to search for the right source which is only one. once you find it then your will is taken over by the will of your creator, then its not you anymore but your creator who is in control, this takes a bit of time for each person. 
depends on the fire, love and desire deep inside.... Love is the ultimate and where do you find the ultimate love its only with God.... the only problem is that God is in spiritual realm so we tend to ignore it a bit as its a bit difficult to believe, so we believe in his creation rather than the creator....

AAU: Dear L8, 
Anatomy and Physiology of every living species including human beings evolves spontaneously, uncontrollably and unpredictably in life. Therefore, the structure, form, shape, colour, functions, movements and behaviour are unique and different to each, meaning they may be similar but never identical. If they were identical every specie including human being’s structure, form, shape, colour, functions, movements and behaviour would be the same. Nothing is garbage in life. For example; the garbage that comes out of a human being is because of food that goes in. If garbage does not come out he would not survive. The human being does nothing; to see, to hear, to smell, to taste, to touch, to think or to move. They all happen to a human being. They are the human being’s survival instincts and they happen spontaneously, uncontrollably, and unpredictably, just as the survival instincts happen to all species, spontaneously, uncontrollably, and unpredictably by the intelligence of life or God. The human being only claims that he can; see, hear, speak, think, move, smell, taste, touch and behave. The claim is false meaning illusory and not real. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L12, 
Can man and his ego which is false, find his creator? 
AAU

AAU: Dear L10, 
If free will has limitations, it cannot be free. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L9, 
If belief about a part of existence that cannot be simply understood, then that belief would be a personal opinion that is shared by more than two, as would be any other belief which is easily understood, and not the truth, as truth cannot be known. 
AAU

L6: Belief means certainty with the Idea (way of life).
It reveals itself on 3 levels of humanbeing internally and 2 planes of Individual & Collective..
1. - Certainty by Knowledge ( ilm-ul-yaqeen ) - Here you know the truth but can't explain...

1. - Certainty by Witnessing ( Ain-ul-yaqeen ) - Here you see the truth but can't explain...

3 - Certainty by Truth ( Haq-il-yaqeen ) - Here you're with the truth an Absolute Certainty.

L7: Dear AAU, 
For doing ordinary things daily, I have all. Do not need anything. 
Re whether man can find his creator: creator is within me, I am unable to realize this. May be someday suddenly, depending upon His grace? In any case I do not have to search (find) Him.

AAU: Dear L7, 
To do anything daily you would require time isn’t it? Without time you would not be able to do anything. Is this correct or not? 
AAU

L8: @ Are you saying that human behaviour is autonomous of knowledge gained and intelligence developed during one's life time. If your premise is correct, why would we then need schools and colleges and even this discussion? I believe you are going fundamentally wrong somewhere. 

Are you saying that there is nothing like wrong knowledge? There are certainly people who can turn genuine knowledge in to garbage. There is certainly lot of garbage in the knowledge pool that we have inherited. And, there are of course people who die after breathing polluted air or eating contaminated food. What would you say about adulterated food that people consume innocently or out of no choice? 

Do you want us to believe that the scientific theories that hold true independently of individual human beings have no relevance to our understanding of human life and the way we customise our survival strategies?

L6: On material-level science does help human-life but not on immaterial-level of human-reality because science don't have a clue yet.

L9: Thank you Mr AAU! And, I see may thoughtful comments...

I am usually not understanding you Mr AAU.

I believe free will has to do with our relationship with God. God has created things so complex we are completely convinced we are doing things our own way and figuring things out on our own. We want to act as the "Lord" to the extent that we try to deny the existence of God.

Bhakti Yoga International

L13: Free will is just that...the freedom to make choices without real consequences. There is a reaction to every action, but there is no judgement day because if there were judgement it wouldn't be 'free' will at all. The notion that we have free will means that we are free from the repercussions outlined from some as eternal damnation.

L14: Free will is the inalienable right to choose to do as one pleases without boundaries or societal laws to prohibit the exercise thereof.

However, no society allows complete free will when the choice of action infringes upon the free will rights of others, regardless of the intent of the choice.

Tyrants and dictators attempt limit rights, but even that cannot prevent one from choosing based on one's free will. The consequences might not be intended or desired, but one still has the free will to act in the manner in which they choose. Protesting against tyrants and dictators is an exercise of one's free will.

L4: L13, Thank you for your comments where you said; "Free will is just that...the freedom to make choices without real consequences." - Sister, with all due respect to your thoughts, in my point of view all choices are with real consequences! - for example they say; "don't drink and drive" meaning drinking has real consequences? - 

You also said; "There is a reaction to every action, but there is no judgement day because if there were judgement it wouldn't be 'free' will at all." - Sister, In my point of view because there is a judgement day, our free will to follow or not follow the Will of Allah, GOD of Heavens and Earth makes logical! - for example, lot of people do what ever they like in this world which is not according to the Will of GOD but they still seems to have a very happy successful life but because there is a judgement day for that person the choices made against the will of GOD will be questioned. - Another example, a man can be punished here in this world only once as death for killing 10 other human being but GOD can punish that man 10 times and more by giving him fresh skin every time the skin gets burnt out and the pain-receptors of skin are damaged. Is it not easy to understand TRUTH when someone know the complete picture, is it not something like seeing only 1st part of a movie? - food for thought?

L13: L4 the question was posed to me what my opinion was on Free Will. You do not know the complete picture, Brother. You cannot know with your tiny human brain what We created when We decided to split into parts and experience not being perfect beings of love. But We are, I assure you, perfect beings of love having an experience of not being perfect. There is no Will of God but to have the experience of love. The rules which you hold yourself accountable are man made and not of God. God does not judge or punish. And while we can experience earthly reactions to our actions and choices we will never suffer consequences administered by God on a judgement day. If we were meant to be perfect, we would have been made to be that way. To choose to come from love because we are love is far more honor to a Creator than to choose to come from fear because we are afraid of repercussions in the afterlife.

L13: PS....we all have tiny human brains, I didn't mean to sound as if I thought you specifically had a tiny human brain. None of us Know the complete picture, we can only go by what our hearts tell us.

L7: Dear AAU, 
Time is highly flexible. If I am doing something I like, time flies, when I am doing something I don't like, it gets extended. One thing I have loved doing all my life is reading (anything - very vast choices), and even when I was very very busy in my work, I always had time for reading. If one loves doing something, time is always there (as long as I am alive).

L4: L13, Thank you for saying; "None of us Know the complete picture, we can only go by what our hearts tell us." Sister, In my point of view only to go by what heart tell may not always be wise as some hearts may be wrapped stopped from feeling true love !

L8: @ Ali I am glad that you agree with the point that 'science does help human-life' ('on material-level). As you have pointed out, science certainly has no clues about spiritual life. Similarly, spiritualism has no clues about material life. 

So long as we live on this earth, material life is a reality which is best understood and dealt with the help of science. Similarly one may perceive, understand and deal with issues beyond the material life with the help of spiritualism. 

Real problems arise when we misapply spiritualism to the harsh realities of the current life or try to explain issues beyond life on earth with the help of science. 

It is time to draw the necessary lines of demarcations between scientific theories that are relevant to life on earth and spiritualism which essentially focuses beyond life on earth. 

The indiscriminate mixing of the two perspectives is perhaps the biggest hurdle on the way of finding reasonable and fair solutions to the problems facing the world

L6: Hahahaha L8, Spirtualism the highest of the sceinces a man would come to know in this century n here after ;) 

So, I do ignore your speculations here. 
Science knows what body does and spirtualism knows why it does it. 
Science never answer why but confirms the answer already appointed by early human being. 

Science is phenomenon of testifying on very basic level…like a child (obvious confirmations)

L8: @ L6 

What answer does spiritualism give to the oppressed, ill treated, hungry, diseased persons? 

If spiritualism is the highest of sciences, I believe it must offer food, medicines, rights, and dignity of life too. 

Would you be kind enough to tell me how spiritualism solves all these problems of the material world?

AAU: Dear L8, 
I am not saying that human behaviour is autonomous of knowledge gained and intelligence developed during one’s life time. I am saying just the opposite, because autonomous means the right or the condition of self-governance. 
I am saying life’s intelligence evolves and sophisticates knowledge every moment. The first letter has evolved within man and man did not make it. From that first letter of the first language, knowledge has evolved to the first man and man did not make it, or could have been taught by anyone. Knowledge is unique, meaning varied or similar but never identical. 
I am saying that life’s intelligence evolves and sophisticates the way each one dies. It has happened to the first man on earth and he did not make death and death will continue to happen to man as long as he is on earth. That way is unique, meaning varied or similar but never identical. 
I am saying that life’s intelligence evolves and sophisticates the way food is made or consumed. It has happened to the first man on earth and he did not make it or was taught how to consume it, and will continue to happen to man as long as he is on earth. The way food is made and consumed is unique, meaning varied or similar but never identical. 
I am not saying what one should believe. I am saying Life’s intelligence evolves and sophisticates what each one believes. What each one believes is unique, meaning varied or similar, but never identical. 
Life’s intelligence cannot be comprehended by the intellect of the mind, because life’s intelligence has evolved and sophisticated intellect within man’s mind and man has not made intellect happen to his mind. Life’s intelligence will evolve and sophisticate man into an enlightened being when the understanding happens to him that man is not the doer, as the enlightened have proclaimed. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L9, 
If God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient, and this is not denied by me. It is understood to be the truth. This only means that God is in every speck of existence which I understand has to be the truth. And what is everywhere is light, and it cannot be denied. Therefore it suggests that the world is an illusory manifestation of light or God. Please correct if it is wrong. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L13, 
As choice is a thought, man could choose if he could control his own thoughts. He could control his thoughts if he could make only the thoughts which he wants to come, or if he could replace them after they come. But he can do neither, as man knows his own thoughts only after they come to him, and never before, and he cannot replace thoughts after they have come to him. So, how could the freedom to make choices without real consequences be possible? 
AAU

AAU: Dear L14, 
If man could know how to control his own actions, he could do only the actions which he wants to do, or if he could replace an action after it has been done. But he can do neither, as man knows what he has done only after he does the action, and never before, and he cannot replace the action after it has been done by him. How could ‘to do’ be an inalienable right? 
AAU

L14: Dear AAU: 

Free-will is not about control, it is about the ability to be able to act as one please. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had the free will to live a life in eutopia, but made the choice to take a different avenue against God's will. Because of their free will, Adam and Eve make a choice and suffered the consequences, which is one of two outcomes of exercising one's free will -- exercising good or not so good, sometimes called evil. 

Also, one can "think they know" -- i.e. through metacognition they can determine the most possible outcome of behaviors, and then make a free-will choice of action. While it is only after one completes an action that they know "for sure" what they did, they could have figured out the outcome before taking the action, with or without control. Free-will by natural law indicates the ability to think before doing; regardless of control restrictions. 

Man, by virtue of being born free has by nature inalienable rights to do as one pleases (after they mature enough to think about it). It has nothing to do with control at that point. Control, either self-imposed or by an outside source, comes after free-will. The control agent has the free-will to take control, the outcome of which depends on their power to control; this follows the concept of inalienable rights. 

Thanks for the website acadun.com. I am reading more about it, because I have the free will do learn, not because you referred me to it; which I imagine you could call a method of control. 

Most respectfully, 

L14

L13: Dear L4, 

You said, "In my point of view only to go by what heart tell may not always be wise as some hearts may be wrapped stopped from feeling true love !" It is our minds that stop our hearts from feeling true love. We can control our minds completely, so following our hearts is the wisest way to go.

L13: Dear AAU, 

Your premise is what you've have been conditioned to believe by those who wish to control you because they feel you incompetent to decide for yourself. Human beings can indeed control thoughts before they come, they can reprogram those that have already arrived. I can show you how, you can buy my book when it is published and I'd be happy to work one on one with you. :)

L3: And AAU has the free will to decide if he wants to do that or not L13 :-) 

Sorry, I couldn't resist - meant it to make everyone smile!!!

L13: YUP!!!!! :) Just like I had the free will to decide if I wanted to extend the invitation.

L15: I am not big on sales jobs, but big on truth. Free will comes from your truth. Like it or not. Social conditioning is rife in society, making cash off it is counterproductive to excellent mental health, as it implies it takes money to heal, which buys into the social conditioning. Sorry L3, sometimes it's not in the smile but the truth, ;-) 

UL to ALL.

L15: YUP, just as I thought LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

L13: While I understand it sounded like a sales pitch, sometimes people do not value things they do not have to put effort into. Buying a $15 book is not much of financial commitment but having the words at hand makes it much easier to work one on one with someone. That is the truth, whether you like it to be or not.

L3: Hey L15, nice to see you.............I don't disagree with you, just wanted to lighten the mood in here!

L15: L13, when people listen to your words they put forward one of two things; effort or ignorance. As for the fifteen bucks, I don't begrudge you for that, make no mistake, but on LI you have the rule of no solicitation. 

This means you are followed or listened to by your words in the open and not, after the money exchange. 

This is how you promote yourself as far as I can see to make it real. 

If your advice sticks, I'm sure people will pony up the 15 bucks, no worries, right?

L15: Hi again L13, just noticed the handbook reference. There is no handbook unless you have one for 2 billion plus people, we are all different. A handbook implies a box to fit in, sorry I think outside of boxes and would love to see even more people outside of the box and trap. A leader provides fertile ground for free expression, be a leader and not a boss.

I quote you here" Your premise is what you've been conditioned to believe by those who wish to control you, because they feel you incompetent to decide for yourself. Human beings can indeed control thoughts before they come, they can reprogram those that have already arrived. I can show you how, you can buy my book when it is published and I'd be happy to work one on one with you. :) " unquote L13 LSW Feb 1st 2014.
These are control statements L13, from my perspective. Do you see what you are bringing to the table? Take a look at your rough draft of your book, how can it improve?? Some lucid thought to help.

UL to you and your loved ones. If you don't know what UL is, just ask.

L13: L15, OK, I'm gonna stop this here. The offer to buy the book and work one on one was more tongue and cheek than an authentic offer. Though if someone wanted to work with me I am quite open to that. i need to pay my bills and put food on the table so an exchange benefits both. 

I am not sure how you can infer from my statement that I offer a box. Your perspective is quite skewed, from my perspective, if you think you can assess something as controlling when you have not read it. It is not lucid thought at all, from my perspective, but merely an assumption...

L15: No assumptions L13. An offer of one to one cannot be tongue in cheek otherwise it is not authentic. What you are selling by virtue of your statement speaks for itself. As for bills and food, everyone has that to do, just the way it is in the box LOL. Anyways, I hope that helped to sharpen your focus from surviving to growing and flourishing and to think. I do understand my perspective is skewed from yours and visa-verse. Question is what really makes sense?? More lucidity for consumption. 

UL to ALL

L13: We will just agree to disagree.

L15: Actually L13, you don't have the right to impose that decree, as I understand your position, but have my own opinion. We can agree only when we agree and not when we agree to disagree. That's just oxy-moronic to me LOL 

UL to you and your loved ones :-)

L12: We can debate for long as we live but the truth of God stays for ever.
Some find it some keep searching in the wrong places.
When its windy we see things moving but dont see the wind, but still believe that there is wind.
Because God is in a spiritual realm and we are not able to comprehend will that be a reason to say that there is no God.
We are free to choose what we do and every choice comes with a consequence good or bad.
Only God can see your destiny and has a good plan, if you are in communion with God each moment then you will be guided accordingly.
Best choice for you will come to you.
There is limitation in our thoughts surrender to God and let the glory be expressed through you to do greater things in life and leave a legacy behind.....

L4: Dear L13 , You said, "It is our minds that stop our hearts from feeling true love. We can control our minds completely, so following our hearts is the wisest way to go." Sister, in my humble opinion "True Love" is what we must have felt for GOD during our time in mother's womb when we were under the sole love mercy blessing and care that we do not remember, even a mother can see or touch her own baby in her own womb that must be under HIS care? When we are born it is HIM who make milk available for us to drink and mother's mercy blessings love and care which HE put in that mother's heart as soon as the baby's soul entered through her body on the 120th day of her pregnancy. - HIS love mercy blessings and guidance start through our mother and who ever stay connected with mother feel that divine love that originated from GOD through her. - When a mother understand and tell the Truth to her child that it was The Creator of the Heavens and Earth who took care at the time in womb and that the child should love Creator more than mother then the child start to understand love mercy blessings of Creator and try all life to stay connected. - It is important to understand the unconditional connection with our mother in order to understand the divine connection of The Creator. - food for thought?

AAU: Dear L13,
respond to "PS....we all have tiny human brains"....,

Human intellect and understanding is not dependent on the size of the brain. A genius can be as young as nine yrs. Understanding is reflected by the intellect life has bestowed to a brain. The heart is a poetic word to describe understanding. The heart is relatively a pump.
AAU

AAU: Dear L7, 
The smallest unit of time defined by an atomic watch is one attosecond, which is one billionth of a billionth of a second. Life is faster than this. Time cannot be measured it can only be defined by a mechanism made. Life is timeless. The mind does not operate at the speed of life let alone one attosecond. If you love reading, as you say you do, read a book ‘The illusions of life’ that explains the illusoriness of life, which the man takes it as real. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L14 
Man needs to understand that thoughts, words and actions happen to him and to others too. If he understands that they happen to him and he does not do them, anxiety, blame-game, excitement and satisfaction will be replaced by harmony in daily life. Man thinks life is real and he wants to do, as he believes the real can be done. He needs to understand that life is a reflection of the real, which is light, and life is therefore illusory, where nothing can be done, but nevertheless everything that is meant to happen does happen, including your reading the website acadun.com. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L13, 
Response to : "Your premise is what you've have been conditioned to believe....." 

My premise is understanding and not a conditioned belief. A belief is personal opinion shared by more than one. It cannot be the truth as truth cannot be known. An understanding is neither a belief. Absolute understanding is relative truth that explains how life is. There is no one who wishes to control me. Surely thoughts can be reprogrammed after they come, which only means that the reprogrammed thoughts would need to be reprogrammed once again after they come. Because either the reprogrammed thought or a thought that needs reprograming could come, as man cannot premeditate a thought as certainty. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L3, 
respond to: "And AAU has the free will to decide if....." 

What is meant to happen in life will only happen and no force on earth can stop it from happening. What is not meant to happen will not happen and no force on earth can make it to happen. Man merely claims to do, wants to do, wishes to do, cannot do or did not do. The ego is a claimer as the enlightened have rightly pointed.

AAU: Dear L13, 
Response to: "YUP!!!!! :)...." 

It appears that you had the free will to decide if you wanted to extend the invitation. It would require time to decide and extend an invitation. But is there time in life? The smallest unit of time known to science is n attosecond, which is one billionth of a billionth of a second, and life happens faster than an attosecond whose value is not decided as yet. Could your free will that cannot function at the speed of an attosecond or a second could decide, and extend an invitation? But nevertheless it happens. It definitely cannot happen because of free will. Find out how life happens with a decision and a want. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L15, 
Respond to: "YUP, just...." 

What thought was that? 
AAU

AAU: Dear L13, 
Response to: "While I understand it sounded like....", 

People do not value things they do not have to put effort into, such as understanding wisdom present in words, though words pointing to wisdom are at hand. This is the truth whether anybody likes it or not 
AAU

AAU: Dear L13, 
Response to: "We will just agree to disagree" 

I have not disagreed anything to agree to disagree. Disagree is present between opinions, and I have not expressed any opinions. I am stating facts (and not opinions) about life as it is and not opinions about how life is. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L12, 
I do not deny God or that some are with God. I affirm God and also affirm that some are with God. But, would not a choice be false as the ego which makes a choice is false? 
AAU

L16: Kant in his own words: 

"Human reason has this peculiar fate that in one species of its knowledge it is burdened by questions which is, as prescribe by the very nature of reason itself, it is not able to ignore , but which, as transcending of all powers, it is also not able to answer". 

It is probably fair to say that we are no further forward in determining whether free will exists, or even what it entails, than when philosophers were thinking about the issues in the 17th century. Immanuel Kant first drew attention to his classic work The Critique of Reason. As we saw in the chapter on Reason, rationalists think that it is possible to find out certain metaphysical truths simply by means of rational reflection, without reference to sense experience. But reason leads rationalists to all sorts of different conflicting conclusions.

L14: AAU: If life is an illusion, or illusory, as you say, then the whole solar system is an illusion of someone's imagination, which means that individuals are only imagining we exist and are therefore not responsible for any action we take or do. Further, it life is an illusion then I cannot feel anything even the pain I feel from a broken knee or cut on my hand. Therefore, I have to reason to think I am dying if I don't stop the bleeding since it is only an illusion. 

However, since I can feel, think, move, talk, plan, act and know, life cannot be an illusion, which means I have free-will to do, and suffer the consequences thereof. If none of this is true and factual, then existence is nowhere to be found. Therefore, man does not exist, feel, think, move, talk, plan, act and know; which by our mere existence to think, feel, move, talk, plan act and know disproves this theory. 

Since there is light - visual, mental, intellectual, intrinsic, extrinsic - there is existence and reality. Even in darkness there are all these things, except of course the existence of death in which there is no longer existence. 

Furthermore, God, Supreme Architect, Supreme Being, Higher Power and any other "force" causing our existence enabled intrinsic powers to do, act, think as we see fit to improve our personal reality; which excludes scientific thought and theory since it had nothing to do with our creation or existence or ability to think, act, move and do. 

The Force causing our creation enabled us to think, which precludes the idea that thinking only happens; hence free-will was enabled by that Force causing our existence. Through the reality of cognition, including metacognition, humans behavior naturally follows.

AAU: Dear L16 
Truth can never be known, be it metaphysical or any other form of truth. Those who wish to reach the truth have to use reason. Reason is nevertheless conveyed by words. A word is gross sound uttered by the speaker and subtle sound in a thinker. This sound however appears mysteriously as word and language in the mind. Sound is light at a lesser speed. Every speck of existence is light as every speck is made up of atoms whose energy is light. The world is therefore an illusory manifestation of light that appears real to the human mind. The fate of reason is light, albeit illusory. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L14, 
That the whole solar system is real and not illusory is an imagination. That our existence is real and not illusory is an imagination. That our responsibility is real and not illusory is an imagination. Everyone knows that he or she is responsible for the actions that is done, the responsibility and the pros and cons are illusory and not real. Illusory does not mean the real does not exist. Illusory means that the real does exist, illusory means that the real does not exist in the manner the mind believes the real exists. 
Man does not do anything to see, hear, smell, taste, think and touch. Man exists and he did not do anything to begin his existence, similarly everything happens to him whether he likes it or not. Man merely claims that he can see etc. 
Human senses are limited. Everything in existence is made up of atoms and atom is light. Man can see only visible light and not all kinds of light for example radio waves, infrared light, gamma rays, microwaves, x-rays etc.. Darkness is light that the human mind cannot interpret as light. In simple words darkness is light the man cannot see. 
Everything that happens is not denied, it will continue to happen in much more sophisticated way than it is now. But, when every speck of existence is light which is proved by science, and science too is a manifestation of light, it only shows that the human intellect cannot comprehend the intelligence of God or pure light to make the illusory to appear real. 
AAU

L11: AAU, 

Based on your last post, even your perception /premise is not real and is based on assumptions that may therefore not be real. Like humans have created this view that we can only see and therefore there is so much we cannot even comprehend. To some extent I can "roll" with that idea, but again it is a construct borne out of human perception to understand our predicament.

AAU: L11, 
The words in my last post to your statement “I`m not sure - I`m married with an active mother in law, what does this mean?? were “It means you are married with an active mother in law.” The words do not signify perception/premise or assumption. The words were merely an inquiry. 
AAU

L17: believe also free will =choice.but if it's free.

AAU: Dear L17, 
So is choice free? 
AAU

L18: My View: 

Applying my day to day mundane definition, Free will is being able to decide & act without anyone imposing it on me and I have a choice to decide & act. But this is where the simplicity ends. 

Metaphysical views: 
Free will is as free as the difference between Chained & Loosely Chained. There is nothing free about Free Will. Any decision I take has a consequence which directs further action. As Steven R Covey wrote in his book, if you pick one end of the stick the other end comes along. That is the degree of freedom we have . 

Literature from field of medicine quotes that the impulse to act has arrived 20 seconds earlier to the Body recognizing the command to act. So while we think , we make the choices( Evinced by Bodily actions) the will to act has come from some where. Did this come of its own or was it a consequence to a previous action. 

Other Theories 

Other studies indicate, that all choices exist as a probability distribution as a Decision tree. Once we make a choice motivated by Gunas ( Satwa( Equipoised) , Rajas ( Action), Tamas( Lazy)) similar to Type A , B , C personality & Influenced by residual memory experiences ie Vasanas, the rest of the choices is as per the decision tree.) . So it is interesting to note that this Probability decision tree maps all possible decisions that can potentially occur 

Concluding 
Free will is free of polarities of choice , Free of the opposites, Free of the consequences. There is no Effect leading to further cause ( No further Karmas).

AAU: Dear L18,

So does man have free will?

AAU

AAU: Dear L18, 

The same would apply to the scientist, the impulse to determine the finding would have arrived 20 seconds before he found it out. This would apply to every human being. So who is to determine who acted at all? If the impulse to act is a consequence of a previous action, how did the first action happen at all? If it were due to karma where did karma come from for the first man on earth? 
AAU

L9: I am sorry Mr AAU, I still have trouble following your logic and reasoning. 

Good or bad karma is of the material existence where there are many universes and many planets. We have the free will to do good or bad karma in this material existence. If we do bad karma we will suffer adverse reactions. But, God is allowing us to do good or bad karma as we like. Still, God tries to offer way for conditioned souls to return to the spiritual world where there is all-good and no need for distinctions of good or bad karma.

L9: L9, 

I am using simple logic L9 of right or wrong, presence and absence. What is present everywhere are human being, animal kingdom, vegetation, objects and matter. All of which is made up of atoms which is basically light. This again is what we learn in school and college, which is logical and not illogical. I do not understand how you could find this logic troublesome to follow. So do you say God is not omnipresence, omnipotent and omniscient? If so let me know, I shall explain karmas which I find is your main issue, correct me if I am wrong. 
AAU

L9: [So do you say God is not omnipresence, omnipotent and omniscient? If so let me know, I shall explain karmas which I find is your main issue, correct me if I am wrong. 
AAU ] 

Well, what are your conclusions? What are your conclusions about the material existence and the spiritual existence? 

Yes, I believe God is "omnipresence, omnipotent and omniscient". Are you saying you believe in God? Do you believe man is made in image of God? 

Do you believe there is good and bad karma? Do you believe God is doing enough to give us free will?

L18: AAU, 

To answer your question on " Where is the first thought from" 

I read a story & it goes like this. A person was put up in a hill resort . He steps out of his cottage and walks along the path enjoying the scenic beauty. Suddenly he sees a huge Grizzly. Now he picked up a stick & some how managed to stave of the beast. He walks along & runs in to a coffee shop & lured by the aroma. He orders a coffee & relishes the taste . He walks along further & he meets an attractive girl , they become friends & one thing led to another. 

The next day when he stepped out on his usual walk, he started looking around for a big stick( in anticipation of a bear). Check for the coins for the coffee shop. Checked his attire in anticipation of another meeting. He finds himself conditioned. Over a period of time, these first time events , experience, taste left behind & recurring triggers of these events left him feeling that he is bound by his own thoughts action & reactions. After many years passed by , he forgot the initial thoughts & the triggers for many of the actions that he did, But only remembered that he is riding the consequences, Like if you sit on a tiger ( hoping one manages to sit for the sake of discussion), you cannot get down. He felt that it was important to get out of this complicated web of action & reaction & this is where the search for the source begins. 

The essence is we may not know the source of the first thought but this is where faith in scriptures of our religious masters step in . I believe in what we Prarabda ( ie those karmas inherited from past births ) + Agamiya( New karmas done in current birth) = Sanchita ie net closing balance of Karma yet to be completed. The belief is that one takes as many births as required until this karma zeroes out ( or TO DO list zeroes out). 
This has been told in innumerable instances in our scriptural texts 

The thoughts that we get may not be free at all , as these are coming from Net of the closing balance & carry forwards.These karma or residue from Past actions is what what we call ( Vasanas - Literally meaning fragrance) . Ie the past actions rubs of a fragrance or consequences on us & this precipitates further actions & reactions. If the fragrance is good it propels us to do further good actions. If the fragrance ie the residual memories is not good, it propels us into undesirable actions. 

AAU, I believe we know what we seek & what we are trying to understand. It may be different in the way we articulate with our own cultural nuances. I have attempted to explain to the best of my limited understanding .

AAU: Dear L9, 
It is not my conclusions, but the conclusions that is arrived by logic and reason whether anybody likes it or not is that there is only one existence which is real, meaning present in every speck of existence and that is light. And that material and spiritual existence though they exist, both are illusory and not real. 
As the only thing that is omnipresent, omnipotent and omnipresence is light, do you believe that God is light and not who we think God is? I trust God is light, for light is all there is, and light is omnipresent as everything that exists is light, as light is omnipotent as every power known to mankind is made up of atoms and the energy they contain is light, and as light is omniscient (meaning all knowing) and since information is only known and information is light. Man is not made in image of God as light has no image, man is manifested as an optical illusion of light, which is God, 
I understand that there is good and bad karma for the ego to exist, as without them the ego and the drama that man is the doer would not exist. Their existence however is illusory and not real, Illusory because, good is depended on bad for its meaning, just as bad is depended on good for its meaning. Good has no meaning on its own just as bad had no meaning on its own. Both the words good and bad have no meaning of their but yet donate meaning to the other, how real could this be? God is not doing anything at all as God is light, and all doing are illusory and not real. Illusory does not mean it does not exist, it means it exists but not in the manner the mind thinks it exists. 
AAU

AAU: Dear L18, 

The story does not explain where the first thought is from, but never mind. I understand that your understanding is limited and you have not made the understanding to be limited, it is for that is what it is. The understanding will surely increase but when one can never say. What karma could the first man on earth possibly bring, if karma is brought from previous birth? If time is not present in a moment or in the now, and you affirm that is the case, how could the first man on earth execute an action or a man in any birth, as time would be required to perform either a good or a bad action? The most important message the sages have given man is that the world is illusory, find out why the world is illusory. This message has happened to them as well and they did not make it happen. 
AAU

AAU: Dear AAU 

Our topic was Freewill : World View : Yes, Absolute : No ( I write this so that we know where we started in this trail) 

Responding : 
Thought occurs only when there is sensory perception .associated with the body. Thoughts about the body is the " I" ( suffix it with ego). So the first thought should have occurred to the Individual EGO when it started perceiving the world & then on there is no stopping the chain of thoughts, actions & Reactions. Karmas across births is for the body & the associated time. The very fact that someone is born is to exhaust karma ie past throught led actions & reactions... Birth is a consequence to an action before. Time exists for the world view. It does not exist for the one who has vanquished thoughts & abides in the SUPREME SELF . We should not mix up the Timeless NOW & the Time bound Births & karmas . 

These are Empiricial Truths 

1. Brahma Satyam ( The Supreme SELF or Absolute is the Truth ( Ever Present, Supreme Knowledge & Ever blissful) & no debates on this 

2. Jagath Mithya ( The world appears to be true but it is an illusion because the substratum of the world is the SELF & all manifestation is from that. ) 

3. You are not different from THAT & All is ONE 

To conclude my Views on this topic 
The SELF or the supreme state is not something which needs to be achieved but only recognized that which is already there by removing thoughts that obscure it. 

What must happen will happen & cannot be stopped try what may. What will not happen will not happen , try what may.

L9: Thank you Mr AAU , and Mr L18! 

To say the highest, ultimate or supreme substance is light is like saying Brahmin is highest and supreme. 

<<<>>><<<>>><<<>>> 
vadanti tat tattva-vidas 
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam 
brahmeti paramatmeti 
bhaga van iti sabdyate 

["Those who are knowers of the Absolute Truth describe the Absolute Truth in three features as impersonal Brahman, localized all-pervading Supersoul, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna." In other words, Brahman, the impersonal manifestation, Paramatma, the localized manifestation, and Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are one and the same. However, according to the process adopted, He is realized as Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan.] 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => TLC 5: How to Approach God 

The Hare Krsna belief is in the oneness of Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan "The Supreme God". 

We can focus on the Supreme Origins of existence to discern something. If there is anything there that something or someone would have to have origins when following normal logic and common sense. If there is light there at the very beginning of material existence and spiritual existence, then what is the source of that light? Logic and common sense suggest there is a source for any light or power. How about we can never trace it out?

AAU: Dear L18, 
Free will could only be known as a thought, so we are in the topic which was started i.e., free will, and I am aware of it. Thoughts occur only from memory. It is memory which makes up the world. Without memory, man would not experience anything, including sensory perception. But how real could memory or any sensory perception in life be? Thoughts from memory which are words is sound waves that mysteriously appear as words, as only human breath comes out of the mouth while speaking, which is made up of nitrogen and other minor gases which are made up of atoms that is energy which is light. Therefore light appears as sound waves, and not words. Just as light waves transform into sound waves, and words and meanings, light waves transform as sound waves and thoughts in the mind. What was started in this thread to you was to enquire how thought or karma could ever have happened to the first man on earth, who obviously never would have a thought or acted before. How could the first thought ever happen to the ego when the ego itself is a thought? How could the first thought ever happen when memory has not happened to man as any thought comes only from memory? 
What could Brahma Satyam be if not pure light, as light is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient? And there could be no debates on this. The substratum which is the SELF is light and so the world and all manifestation are illusory. I, anyone or everything is not different from THAT because everything is light. 
Yes the SELF or the supreme is not something which needs to be achieved but only understood as being light. Thoughts that obscure the SELF cannot be removed as removal would need to be achieved. It has to be understood that thoughts cannot obscure the SELF as thoughts are illusory and not real. What is meant to happen will only happen and no force on earth can stop it from happening. What is meant not to happen will never happen and no force on earth can make it happen. Wise words from a wise sage from Arunachala, Sri Ramana Maharishi. 
AAU

AAU: L9, 

Brahman or supreme is pure light. All localized manifestation is an illusory reflection of Brahman or pure light. That is what is meant by oneness, to mean that all localized manifestation is an illusory manifestation of light. Logic and common sense suggest that the source of light could be only light, as the cause of light can never be found out, but only the effects of light can be perceived to be illusory. Man can never trace the source because he is an illusory manifestation of the source. 
AAU

L18: AAU 

I agree that memory makes up the world . I agree that thoughts are from memory. 
Memory is made when the world is perceived by the sensory organs. I agree that without memory manifesting as thoughts world is not perceived. ( I lost you on Light & sound waves & its connection to our discussion) 

The basic hypothesis I sense that you have is that the 1st man did not have thought or Karma as he would not have thought or acted before ( I do not have logic to disagree but it also does not sound logical to agree that he did not have thought & that he did not act. What would make us conclude that he did not have thought. The very fact that a person is born means that he had a unfinished actions to complete & past Karma & he is born until this is exhausted. 

AAU, all manifest from the self & dissolve into it. So the cause of the 1st manifestation as a birth is in his subtle body when he died carrying all the impressions & residue when he died . The subtle body which is his blue print in him decides what he does & is the source of further actions & thoughts. 

I had mentioned that thought occurs to ego which i would like to stay with 
Ego is the individuals pattern of repository of likes , dislikes & host of other preferences. 
To my understanding, EGO is not a single thought . It is a virtual library of thought patterns of the individual personality with associated memories & preferences likes & dislikes. Any time we see the outside world , unconscious evaluation, differentiation, judgment etc happens & these are sources of thought generation. Also memory of past episodes, events trigger thoughts etc.So thoughts can be based on what is perceived outside or it can be self generated ruminations from within. & all of this is from EGO 

The source of all thoughts is the " I " thought ( EGO) which is the body consciousness. When I said that thoughts that obscure the SELF has to be removed it means unless the body consciousness thoughts ( EGO ) is vanquished, the SELF is not recognized. The instrument which should do this introspection is the Intellect. It is quite paradoxical that Intellect which is a component of Mind is used to Enquire on a component of mind ( Thought) to vanquish itself. It is like using the thief to find the jewel but no other way to do this. 

Looks like i have not been to tell exactly what you were looking for. 

I am OK to stay with the conviction that the 1st thought is the " I " thought ie EGO & this has to be vanquished to recognize the Supreme in me. To do this is the discipline of Self Enquiry or Atma Vichara as to whence this thought is arising from & to whom is this thought arising. I would focus on " ATTENDING TO THOUGHTS" One at a time until I am free of it . 

Thank you for a great opportunity to bring out the best in me.

L4: Hi AAU, You said to L17 Jamili, "Dear L17, So is choice free?" - when she said, "I belive also free will =choice.but if it's free." - Brother, I would like to take the opportunity here to write my point of view on this question, hope she don't mind?. Yes! "{choice is free}". To understand this truth, one must believe in One CREATOR or GOD of the Heavens and Earth that there is nothing like HIM that we can imagine HE is the one WHO is taking the Salty Water UP in the sky and bring it Down as Sweet Water HIS mercy and blessings for every life WATER for FREE with the water plants grow we can BREATH FREE and EAT FISH MEAT VEGETABLES FRUITS from HIS land FREE, like our free Choice!

L9: I believe there are planets situated in eternality as we search out the source of the Light or Brahman. We can meet the various manifestations of the Supreme Being in that place of eternality. The Supreme Being is the source of that Light or Brahman. They are one. We can never understand how God has human-like form. 

The planets and people situated in the spiritual world are all eternal and so never die. They are real enough. There is Maha Maya in the Material Existence, and there is Yoga Maya in the Spiritual Existence. 

Of course, all in the material existence must face Time and Death.

L4: Well said L9, "Of course, all in the material existence must face Time and Death." Brother, if there was no judgement day and no heaven or hell for punishment then how could we say that Allah or Brahman or God is just? You also said, "We can never understand how God has human-like form." Brother, in my humble opinion back in old days there was many things that people wanted others to do it for them, in 1971 when we went to our remote village for the 1st time I saw toilet with a free fall which was going down and gathering into a big bowl through an opening. There used to be people who would come to collect the nasty smelly mess they are called the lowest class? Why do we need god in any form or human-like form if it is not to confuse, frighten and control? -food for thought?

L9: Thanks! But, God has perfect human-like form. In this material existence we have imitation human-like form with other imperfections. To mistreat others is also imperfection. 

Classes of human beings is big topic. I think it is worse problem who is keeping human beings in lower class? 

We can do things to work towards heaven on earth. But, the best hope of heaven is to return to the eternal abode of God.

L4: L9, Brother The Only GOD does Not have an image or shape, you said earlier like light like Maha Maya, Maya can be felt only but can not to be seen or touched. My father used to say that there are some people who are not allowed to think properly to understand the Truth, with less consciousness and no imagination they like god to have a form or a perfect human-shape, they are made think god always like to be anointed?

AAU: Dear L18, 
How could the world be perceived by the sensory organs to make memory? Because to make memory, letters and words would be required, do the sensory organs make letters, words and language? If they do where is the need for memory? Since the sensory organs are present they could very well perceive without the need for memory. You are lost on light and sound because you do not understand that everything is light whether man likes it or not. 
Primitive man moved about just as animals did. He eats and procreated just as animals did. As life evolved and sophisticated the mind, memory appeared, the details are in a book. The very fact that a new born baby has no thoughts or memory proves that the first baby did not have either. How the first baby was born is also in a book. The very fact that you state is a belief and a belief is not the truth. Belief is food for the ego. 
All manifestations are illusory reflections from the self which is light. You say that the cause of the first manifestations is in the subtle body. The question is in whose body? Where did that body come from? Where did the first subtle body come from and what is the subtle body. The subtle body is light. How the first body was manifested is written in a book. 
The ego is attached to every thought whether outside or inside, and that is why it appears as a virtual library of thought patterns. The ego is the ‘I’ which is a single thought. 
It is the body which is related to actions and therefore it is ego or the ‘I’ which is a single thought which is attached to all thoughts. Nothing can be vanquished as everything is energy including the ego or ‘I’ as energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Understand that light can neither be created nor destroyed. When it is understood that the ego, which is the ‘I’ is illusory and not real it is good as vanquished. 
I am not looking for anything, it looks like you have not understood how things actually are, meaning illusory and not real. 
The best which has come out of you could be better, one has to wait and see if it happens. If it is meant to happen it will and no force on earth can stop it from happening. If it is meant not to happen it will not and no force on earth can make it happen. 
AAU

AAU: L9, 

Response to; "I believe there are planets situated in eternality......" 

That planets and people exist in a spiritual world are all eternal and will never die, is believed by man who exists in a spiritual and material existence. The beliefs of man is illusory and not real, which means the spiritual world with its planets and people would be illusory and not real. It could only be true if a man from that spiritual world says that a spiritual world exists. Present. Every particle that exists in this spiritual and material existence, however is proved to be light, so too will be every particle in the spiritual world, planets and people. They too must face time and death, both of which are illusory and not real as light can neither be created nor destroyed. 
AAU

AAU: L9 

Respond to: "Thanks! But, God has perfect human-like form......" 

God with a perfect human form is an illusory reflection of light which is God? This means that all human forms are an illusory reflection of God or light. Since all is light every imperfection is perfection, as perfection is all there is, for light is perfect. The least perfect appears as imperfect to the mind which creates illusory duality, and the least imperfect appears as perfect to the mind. The same applies to distinctions of higher and lower classes. If absolute understanding of life does not happen, duality will exist in the world, albeit illusory. Man is neither the doer nor is there time on earth to work towards heaven. The eternal abode of God is the timeless and thoughtless ‘now’. 
AAU

L9: Thanks for the comments and response! 

Are we considering just how far we need to contemplate to search out the origin of existence? 

We cannot search out the source of existence even at the speed of the mind. 

How often do we look at the wall of our dwelling and realize that wall will dissolve in due course. It may take a million years, but it is certain that wall will vanish and the elements it was made of will merge in with other elements in material existence. 

Our brain and intelligence are puny. Our perception of things is tiny. 

I compare the light you speak of to Brahman. The ancient teachings indicate that all arises from Brahman in the material existence. Perhaps that is the situation in the spiritual world, but I do not have quotes on that at present. Still, God is ultimate origin of all living entities in the material existence and the spiritual existence. 

We have no proof that there is no God. Therefore, people have the right to believe in God. And, it is easier to relate to a God who is human-like.

L18: AAU, i get a feeling we will never converge as during each iteration you bring up a new question & a new concept quite different from where we started. I suggest we stay with what we believe from whatever reference we speak from with no need to prove that it is right. 
Results in the form of self realization should tell in course whether we have understood & practiced well.

L19: I recall studying various worldviews in University and for each their was a question as to what the measure of morality was. Most troublesome to me was Secular Humanism that believes first that the universe and all in it is a coincidence where humans are accidentally nothing more than advanced animals. They believe that life's purpose is simply to pursue any temporal form of happiness. The moral philosophy is simply that as long as something is done of ones own free will, then it is right. This requires an understanding which excludes infants, or the mentally incapacitated and even the elderly suffering from dementia or Alzheimer's as not being capable of exerting free will. There is no God in this philosophy and our destiny is merely death and disappearance. If there is any redeeming quality at all it is in the belief of man's law to protect humanity. However, that ideal seems rather oxymoronic as morality is based on the simple exhibition of one's own free will. As long as it makes you happy, it is right. 
What an empty life and worldview this is. 
Free will, I believe, is God's gift to man to use the human vessel in experiencing this life and the world He created. He's given us guidance and a pure heart as a moral compass, yet allows one to choose which action he/she will take. There are those that believe our destiny is predetermined and therefore free will is an illusion. I believe only God knows our destiny because he is all knowing, but for the human vessel experiencing this life our choices are a freedom

AAU: Dear L9, 
On the contrary, we are discussing that the origin of existence could never be searched out by the human mind. The enlightened sages have made it clear that life is beginingless and endless. Also they have made it clear that whatever the mind says will be illusory and not real. Intelligence evolves and sophisticates the intellect in the human mind ever since intellect appeared in the human mind. Intelligence will continue to evolve and sophisticate the intellect and will make man understand that the origins of existence cannot be searched and it is enough to understand that light is the source of existence. Surely we can never do at whatever the speed of mind is now or will become. 

Everything that exists in the world will eventually dissolve in due course and vanish as elements and elements are nothing but light, to appear once more as elements and etc. Surprisingly it will not take a million years for the wall to dissolve and vanish. Our brain and intellect is nothing compared to the intelligence of life. Our perception is limited and illusory, remove memory and the world is not perceived. We have to understand what memory is, and how it came to exist to realise the intelligence of life. This too will happen to man as intelligence of life sophisticates the intellect within the mind. 
The situation in the spiritual world too would be the same, because if there is a man living there, he will have to use materials whether he likes it or not. Man needs to understand that the material world is spiritual, because it is God who has manifested the materials, albeit illusory, and not man. 
God is compassionate and sophisticates the intellect in man so that understanding happens that God is pure light which cannot be seen but he can see a reflection of pure light which is visible light. He has made man understand that radio waves, infrared rays, x-rays, ultraviolet rays and gamma rays are light that man cannot see, but it does not mean they do not exist. Similarly man cannot see pure light, but that does not mean God does not exist. People will believe for that is the understanding that has happened to them by their intellect. They will understand that light is a reflection of God and God is pure light, and goes by many names, at the right moment as and when intelligence, which is God, sophisticates the intellect within the mind.

AAU: Dear L18,

It is because you bring up different topics to the initial inquiry which was ‘what is free will’. I am not saying to prove the initial topic or any topic you presented as right or wrong. I am just saying to prove whether the initial topic presented by me, or the topics presented by you as real or illusory. For instance you say ‘Results in the form of self-realization should tell in course whether we have understood & practiced well’ How could I accept this as the truth for I understand that time is illusory and absent in life (and you confirm it in the topic ‘is time real’ and is confirmed by science too). How could you practise as practise would require time? I do not deny you practise, but would enquire what practise is and whether it is real or illusory.

AAU: Dear L19, 

What you write makes valid sense. Surely would you not like to be clear what is meant by ‘God is all knowing?’ I would certainly like to be clear, so please let me know.

L4: Well said L19, "Free will, I believe, is God's gift to man to use the human vessel in experiencing this life and the world He created. He's given us guidance and a pure heart as a moral compass, yet allows one to choose which action he/she will take." - Sister, He's given us guidance and a pure heart as a moral compass but for some when their moral compass is under control then do you think they have free will even to think?

L4: It takes time intelligence and patience to see her opinion of herself are controlled by others. Free will is Creator's gift to use own body in experiencing this life and the world Creator created. HE has given us guidance and a pure heart as a moral compass but when her moral compass is under control then does she have free will any more even to think freely?

L19: Dear AAU,
 When I speak of an all knowing God, I am reminded of a sermon I heard at a tiny Catholic church in Tulsa, OK. The parish was small and clearly not well funded as there was a different priest each time I went. One Sunday a petite and soft-spoken priest from India was giving his sermon and he said something that has stayed with me to this day: (paraphrased) "The bum you stepped over on your way to service may have more of a right of passage through the gates of Heaven than the church-lady that is at every service, at every church bake-sale and spills scripture from her lips. This is because God cannot be fooled by appearances, He sees directly into your heart. Keep your heart pure and God will rejoice." This is but one example of the "all-knowing" God that our earthly words can express. I believe that His ubiquitous knowing is beyond that which the human brain is capable of comprehending. These are answers we will receive when our souls rejoin Him.



Dear L4,
You ask of free will when for some "their moral compass is under control then do you think they have free will even to think?" I ask you what it would be that they would be under the control of. A baleful cult leader? A dysfunctional family? A nefarious guerrilla war monger? A bad neighborhood? 
Your question makes me think of Nelson Mandela who admittedly spent his first twenty years angry and bitter. For some, the universe must only tap one on the shoulder while for others a ton of bricks must fall before they realize that within each and every one of us is the power to manifest that which we need. Once the realization came, Mandela noted that they may imprison him physically, but they could not control his mind, he could still do good. In each situation, it is the willingness to tap into our inner soulful strength and recognize that it is up to us to live out God's glory through our free will. We may stray from the path, but redemption is a sweetness like no other.

With loving-kindness,
 L19

L19: @AAU: 
I recall attending mass at a tiny church in Tulsa, OK. The parish was very small and clearly not financially well to do as each time I attended, there was a different priest. One Sunday there was a petite priest from India. During his sermon he said (paraphrased): "The bum you stepped over on your way to mass this morning may have more of a right of passage through the gates of Heaven than the church-lady that attends every mass, participates in every fundraiser and spills scripture from her lips. This is because God cannot be fooled by appearances, he sees directly into your heart. Keep your heart pure and God will rejoice." 
This to me is an example of our all-knowing God. Beyond the simple definition of these earthly words, I don't know that our human brains can truly grasp the ubiquitous nature of His knowing. This will be a question answered when our souls return to Him. 



@L4: 
You ask: "for some when their moral compass is under control then do you think they have free will even to think? " I ask you, what is it that their moral compass would be under the control of? Of a cult leader? Of a flawed culture? Of a bad neighborhood or dysfunctional parents? Perhaps a baleful guerrilla leader in war or under the influence of drugs or alcohol? 
In this situation I'm reminded of Nelson Mandela. Admittedly, he spent nearly twenty years in anger, bitterness and mental as well as physical imprisonment. Some people wake up to their spiritual strength with just a tap on a shoulder and others need a ton of bricks dumped on their heads. Eventually, if open, one will wake up. Their is a capacity within each and every one of us to manifest all that we need through our inner strength. The one thing that they could not control was Mandela's mind. There he, and we, can realign ourselves morally. 

In loving-kindness, 
L19

L9: I'm not completely sure, but it sounds ok, Ms L19! 

We are more the illusion than God. God is one and all existence owes its existence to God.

God is the first intelligence and the Supreme intelligence throughout existence. Human beings can learn from God to make some progress in being intelligent.

To say Light and nothing but Light is the Supreme Origin of all Spiritual Existence and Material Existence doesn't really add up. We can't know. Light is some kind of energy and therefore a type of "thing". Where did that "thing" come from? Where did the energy you refer to "Light" come from? We can never know. We can never reach the end at searching out the Supreme Origin of existence. I believe in searching out the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Transcendence - we will ultimately meet up with God, the Supreme Person with all-perfect human-like form.

"O my Lord, O primeval philosopher, maintainer of the universe, O regulating principle, destination of the pure devotees, well-wisher of the progenitors of mankind, please remove the effulgence of Your transcendental rays so that I can see Your form of bliss. You are the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead, like unto the sun, as am I."

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Iso mantra 16

L4: I believe Free Will for all human is Creator's Gift to us to use our own mind and body in experiencing this life and the beautiful world HE created. HE is The Most Kind that Give us Guidance and a Pure Heart as a Moral Compass to every New-Born Baby who are then better than angels feeling Pure True Unconditional Love but when a child finds out parents lie about some gifts they buy and say it was from another man then how can a child understand that Truth is like the foundation to grow Trust and True Love? - A moral compass when is under the 3 command money, temporary love and glitters of this world then can that moral compass receive HIS True Guidance and correct direction?

AAU: L19, 

The word omniscient means all knowing and God is described as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent as well. Is this correct or incorrect? God is not denied I affirm God.

L19: AAU, 

A discovery made by an atheist scientist is still of discovery of God because all that exists is of God. Therefore, God is indeed omnipotent. I have had several deeply personal experiences where it has been only by complete trust and faith in His omnipotence have I survived. Because of that, I've been blessed to recognize the wisdom in His plan for my life. The lessons learned, the appreciation for not only holding me through the torturous difficult times, but also for the guidance that He has given me at times when I've turned it all over to Him are things that leave me absolutely certain of His omniscience. Oh how truly more wonderful the world would be the more humanity could only trust in the same!



L4, 

"A moral compass when is under the 3 command money, temporary love and glitters of this world then can that moral compass receive HIS True Guidance and correct direction? " 

One can easily become corrupted by the temptations of money, temporary love and the material possessions of the world. However, it is not truly money that is at the root of all evil, it is greed. God created beautiful things and does not want for his children to suffer. There is no sin in enjoying the "greater things in life" Keep your heart's intentions loving and motivated by living out God's glory and there is no circumstance under which your antennae stop receiving His guidance. 

I will once again mention, that one may stray from the path, but through free will can choose His guidance once more and find God's path.

L4: Hi L19, You said, "One can easily become corrupted by the temptations of money, temporary love and the material possessions of the world. However, it is not truly money that is at the root of all evil, it is greed." - Sister, I think one can easily become corrupted when that person do not have the true knowledge of The All Seeing and All Knowing Only Creator. Someone having knowledge about the true Creator Allah and HIS Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them all) know that Nothing can be hidden from HIM so they are very careful. That is one of the main reasons for GOD conscious people to be nice kind and very humble!

L7: When I act without fear of any one and with true love, that is free will.

L4: Well said L7, "When I act without fear of any one and with true love, that is free will." Brother, from my point of view we must fear only Allah, GOD of The Heavens and Earth after that without fear of any one influence or command of anyone and yes with true love!

AAU: Dear L19, 

Would omnipresence which is omnipotent and omniscience as well, only be partial? It just cannot, it would be impartial, but there is so much of torturous difficult times for others elsewhere too, who trust the omnipresence, omnipotent and omniscience just as much as you do if not more. Please explain this.

AAU: L7 
again, to act would you not require time? but is there time in life for you to be able to act, is the question, and in order to have free will you would need to have time as well.

 

14 febr 2014

L16: "Once I have determined to move toward enlightenment, even though at times I might become fatigued or distracted, streams of merit pour down 
from the heavens."
Shantideva

AAU: Dear L16, 

Is man the doer would be the question, if man moves towards enlightenment?

L19: Spirit moves man. If man listens, he moves toward enlightenment.

L16: We often find ourselves complying with the will of others, against our own wishes, because we fear rejection that might result if we fail to cooperate. However, in dong so we betray ourselves, thereby further damaging our self-esteem.

AAU: Dear L19, 

Is this the reply to the previous enquiry? Does spirit just move man or does it move his thoughts too? If man listens would not the listening be thought movement by the spirit?

AAU: Dear L16, 

The question is does man do or does the doing happen to him?

L20: I don't believe in free will but in free-er will. I think there are things in life that prohibit us from having completely free will; for example certain interactions with other people, the impact of natural catastrophes, biological and physiological limitations and so on. We have free will to the extent that we can choose how to act on a thought in response to a stimulus that places limitations on us and our senses. We analyze our choices and how those choices impact the potential consequences of our decisions. But, Ultimately, I tend to think free will is more complicated than maybe we would like to believe.

AAU: L20, 

Man ‘believes’ because he understands the meaning of words. Understanding is however, an inherent characteristic of man. The characteristic ‘understanding’ evolved within man, and man did not make the characteristic ‘understanding’ happen to him. Understanding made meanings to words evolve. With meanings knowledge evolved. From knowledge beliefs happened to man, likewise choice too. Choice therefore happens to man and it is not due to free will that man chooses. The moment man is, has happened to man and man has not made the moment happen to be in it. So, whatever happens in life man does not make it happen, they just happen, albeit illusory. Illusory does not means false, or that it does not exist. It exists but not in the way man is made to believe it exists. 


L18: What is the point i need to understand in this thread on " Free Will" . What is the essence that you are trying to communicate as part of your absolute understanding logic. I get lost over the questions. What is the message & what do you want me to understand & learn.

AAU: Dear L18, 
You are the first to ask this question in this thread. The essence and message is not mine. I and many others in the west support the dedication and reverence that Dr.Vijai S Shankar has for the message “Whatever that is meant to happen will happen and no force on earth can stop it from happening. And whatever that is meant not to happen will not happen and no force on earth can make it happen. This includes actions, words and thoughts. That man is not the doer. That life flows in the timeless now.” Dr. Vijai S Shankar hails from a place 100 miles away from Tiruvannamalai. He is a doctor and a scientist. He lives in the west since 1986.

L18: Thank you . I went to the home page of Academy of absolute understanding and read briefly about Dr Vijai S Shankar and his works.. I saw your photograph & that of your collegues who coordinate for the Academy. Nice Pics. I also read through the comparison's & references to other spiritual leaders & view points about them expressed in the academy's web site.. I see where you come from. 

I relate with the principles of Advaita, Non duality, tracing back to Sri Adi shankara. My Learning is from the works of Sri Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi. If you get a chance Please read the book on " Collected Works of Sri Ramana Maharishi" 

All are saying the same. But these principles may be very counter intuitive and illogical to those not exposed to such literature & readings.. The destination is the same but the route & signposts appear to be different & they need not be same. 
Thank you once again for helping me understand the source of your point of view.

L16: At times we may feel free that our desires are completely out of control. To regain self-possession, firmly but gently tighten the reins and, as you do, feel the desires slow down, responding as you regain self-control.

AAU: Hi L18 
Thank you for your mail. Please let me know where you found comparisons and references to spiritual leaders and views about them expressed in the website? The works of Sri Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi and Sri Adi Shankara are well known to the Academy. The academy recognises that they help mankind to understand better the source of all point of views and whether they are real or illusory, please let me know what you mean by "All are saying the same. But these principles may be very counter intuitive and illogical to those not exposed to such literature & readings.. The destination is the same but the route & sign posts appear to be different & they need not be same." What do you think is said on www.acadun.com which you visited briefly? Is there a "path" or a "destination pointed out on www.acadun.com? "? Did Sri Bhagwan Ramana Maharishi or Sri Adi Shankara point put a path and a destination? Please let me know. Thank you.

AAU: Dear Leon, 
This means that your desires where under self- control, before they went out of control. If desires were in control how could they go out of control? More importantly what made your desires go out of control? It certainly wasn’t you, for you were in control of your desires and surely you would not want them to go out of control? So, was your self-control really under your control?

L21: Freedom is not free...

AAU: L21, 

This would mean that free will is not free. Is this what you mean?

AAU: What does free will mean? See

L18: Have replied in private to discuss this offline to get a better grasp of Absolute Understanding articles published.. Appreciate your response.

L21: Yes. Free will is not free

AAU: L21, 
Every speck of man, mind including free will, and everything that exists in the world is made up of atoms which is basically light. But strangely enough the cause of light is not known, although its effects are. Therefore, it means that the world and its effects are light, which is without a cause. This can only mean that the cause of free will can never be known. It can only be said that one of light’s effects is free will, albeit illusory, it is free but yet not free.

L21: The cause of light is God (or however you wish to call the force that governs everything) Gerard, that is why it is too complex for us to understand. But I urge you to pick a side. By saying, "...it is free but not yet free" is creating an oxymoron and you are coming across as a fence-sitter. 

Just to share this with you, I have formed a political party here in Trinidad and Tobago, the name is the Democratic Development Part (DDP) and our latin motto, "Accipe Lumen et Impertio" means "Receive the Light and pass it on".

AAU: Dear Harold, 
The cause of light cannot be God, because the cause and effect cannot be the same. The cause is always separate from the effect. This is why the human intellect just cannot understand. Life is not cherry picking. Life is paradoxical and so it appears oxymoron to those who do not understand the paradoxes of life.

L9: "This is why the human intellect just cannot understand." Yes, we will never understand how God and the Light are one.

L21: The cause of light is God. The effect is worship and hope. Paradoxes are man-made. Life is really simple if we let it. True understanding is saying, "I don't know". These are just my opinions. I am not attempting to convince anyone to believe what I am saying.

L4: It seems that you understand life very well as you said, "This is why the human intellect just cannot understand. Life is not cherry picking. Life is paradoxical and so it appears oxymoron to those who do not understand the paradoxes of life." Brother, please be so kind and tell us about the kind of childhood you had and after your own understanding of "life" who successful and happy life are you leading now with how many children? and how did you plan to spend the rest of your "life" that you understand so well? Thanks in advance!

AAU: L9, 

We understood relative knowledge, because both understanding and relative knowledge happened to us, and we did not make both happen to us. Similarly when absolute understanding happens to us, and we cannot make it happen to us, we will understand and realise that God and light are one.

AAU: Harold 

If the cause of light is God, it would only mean that everything else that exists must be caused by God, as everything that exists in this world including the world is basically light. This is what is meant by, God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. Hence nothing is made by man, he only believes he has made them, and this belief too has happened to man.

L9: The Great Sayings

Several mahā-vākyas or "Great Sayings" from the Upanisads indicate what the principle of Brahman is:

brahma satyam jagan mithya - "Brahman is real, the world is unreal"

ekam edvadvitiyam brahma - Chandogya Upanishad 6.2.1 "Brahman is one, without a second"

prajnānam brahma - Aitareya Upanishad 3.3 "Brahman is knowledge" Brahman knows everything

ayam ātmā brahma - Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5 "The Self is Brahman" The soul is of the same eternal, spiritual and transcendental nature as Brahman

aham brahmāsmi - Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1.4.10 "I am Brahman" I am as eternal as Brahman

tat tvam asi - Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7 et seq. "Thou art that" ("You are Brahman") "You are the servant of the Supreme"

sarvam khalvidam brahma - Chandogya Upanishad 3.14.1 "All is truly Brahman" Brahman is everything, and all we see are His different energies — material or spiritual

sachchidānanda brahma - "Brahman or Brahma is existence, consciousness, and bliss". Brahman, has sat-cit-ananda-vigraha — eternal spiritual body which is full of bliss, and He is Supreme Person (conscious Absolute Person/Truth)

L21:” Gerard, 

I agree with you. When I said "Man-made", I meant only that it is manifested by man. God is light. Yes, everything is caused by God.

AAU: Christopher. 
You write..several mahā-vākyas or "Great Sayings" from the Upanisads indicate what the principle of Brahman is: 
Response:They are absolutely right and need to be understood absolutely 
brahma satyam jagan mithya "Brahman is real, the world is unreal" 
Response: Meaning Brahman is pure light and the world is a reflection and therefore unreal, meaning illusory. 
ekam edvadvitiyam brahma Chandogya Upanishad 6.2.1 "Brahman is one, without a second" 
Response: Meaning Brahman is pure light and therefore one without a second. 
prajnānam brahma Aitareya Upanishad 3.3 "Brahman is knowledge" Brahman knows everything 
Response: Light is information and knowledge and therefore it implies Brahman or pure light is everything. 
ayam ātmā brahma Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5 "The Self is Brahman" The soul is of the same eternal, spiritual and transcendental nature as Brahman 
Response: The self and soul is the same which is light as is Brahman 
aham brahmāsmi Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1.4.10 "I am Brahman" I am as eternal as Brahman 
Response: 'I am' meaning light and not an individual is as eternal as Brahman or light. 
tat tvam asi Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7 et seq. "Thou art that" ("You are Brahman") "You are the servant of the Supreme" 
Response: tat tvam asi means "That Thou Art" and not "Thou art that" Meaning That is pure light, is that. Every moment is because of light and the word servant is poetic to mean whatever is meant to happen will happen and no force on earth can stop it. If the world were illusory as you quote that it is "brahma satyam jagan mithya "Brahman is real, the world is unreal" how could the servant be real? 
sarvam khalvidam brahma Chandogya Upanishad 3.14.1 "All is truly Brahman" Brahman is everything, and all we see are His different energies - material or spiritual 
Response: Brahman is everything meaning pure light, and all different energies-material or spiritual is light too, which is obvious. 

sachchidānanda brahma "Brahman or Brahma is existence, consciousness, and bliss". Brahman, has sat-cit-ananda-vigraha - eternal spiritual body which is full of bliss, and He is Supreme Person (conscious Absolute Person/Truth) 
Response: Man is not deceived by the inscrutable but by that which is perceived by his mind to be obvious. The statement means Brahman is pure light, in poetic language.

AAU: Harold, 

Nothing is manifested by man, because man is part of the manifestation, albeit illusory. Everything is not caused by God; everything is only a reflection of God or light.

L22: For me, Free Will, is often misunderstood because people look for it to be an outer expression. As I understand, Free Will, is an inner expression that ultimately creates the outer experience. If you believe that God/Source created us in It's Image, then by nature we are creators. If you understand duality, you know we humans are both human ego and God /Source expressing Itself or creating. Using all this knowledge, understanding that what the ego holds as "will" (the ego is free to align with God/Source or not- free will) ultimately creates our experience then Free Will is where we choose to be within our mind; what we are creating.

AAU: Nancy 
If you understand duality, ego and human, you would realise they all are a reflection of light or God, hence they all including free-will is illusory and not real.

L23: Thoughts + Activities = Experience. Free is ....................................... . Thank God.

AAU: L23, 
Thoughts, activities and experience are thoughts. Without thoughts none would exist. And all thoughts are only from memory, which means free-will too is a thought from memory. Memory is the past and not the present. Thank God free-will is not in the present. The present is the timeless ‘now’.

L23: Thanking The God in end of any activity is my habit and it is also a great deed (quality). God's present(gift) is present. Thank You and Thank God.

L23: kkPlease explain about "The Maya in Your Thought". Thank God.

AAU: L23, 

Maya too is a thought in the mind, but that thought is wisdom and not knowledge. If you are really interested you should read the books and listen to the cd’s, explaining maya in detail. They are available close to where you stay. It is impossible to explain online or offline. If you are interested to know what maya is, let me know, I shall give you the contact.

L24: I did not look over all the responses, as I was coming late to this discussion. But I will 'choose' to. Who is doing the choosing? If I have no 'free will' then 'what' is doing the choosing? If I fail to read over the discussions as promised, then who chose this? 

Was there a choice? And if there was no 'choice' how can there be any 'free will'? 

What chooses to scratch your nose when it itches? If you choose not to scratch your nose when it itches is that a 'choice'? 

If not, why not? 

... 

I am jumping late into this conversation. Please forgive me (do you have the 'choice' to forgive me'?) 

Do you choose to live? To you choose to breathe? Do you have the free will to 'live' without 'breathing'? 

What is 'Free Will'? 

Do you choose to sneeze? 

What is 'Free Will'? 

How do you know what is Free Will and what is not? 

>>> Maya too is a thought in the mind, but that thought is wisdom and not knowledge.<<< 

Then how do you 'know' it is 'wisdom' and not knowledge? 

To 'know' it is wisdom is to have 'knowledge' that wisdom is wisdom. 

So to choose 'wisdom' and to choose 'knowledge' cannot be separated. 

And it is only your 'free will' that is claiming one is different than the other. 

... 

I just noticed your moniker. 

>>> Coördinator Europe at Academy of Absolute Understanding<<< 

'Absolute Understanding'. 

Nice work if you can get it, and you can get it if you try.

AAU: Dear L24, 
I did not look over all the responses, as I was coming late to this discussion. But I will 'choose' to. Who is doing the choosing? If I have no 'free will' then 'what' is doing the choosing? If I fail to read over the discussions as promised, then who chose this? 
Response: The precise movement of life appears as choice to man’s mind. 

Was there a choice? And if there was no 'choice' how can there be any 'free will'? 
Response: The precise movement of life appears as free-will to man’s mind. Choice and free-will are therefore illusory and not real. Illusory does not mean choice and free-will do not exist. They do exist but their existence is illusory but not real. 

What chooses to scratch your nose when it itches? If you choose not to scratch your nose when it itches is that a 'choice'? If not, why not? 
Response: Does man know what he was doing before he scratches his nose? He does not, the scratching happens spontaneously. The precise movement of life appears to the man that he made a choice not to scratch his nose, and that he did not scratch his nose because of the choice is illusory and not real.... 

I am jumping late into this conversation. Please forgive me (do you have the 'choice' to forgive me'?) 
Response: The precise movement of life which cannot be premeditated with certainty will appear as the choice to forgive or not forgive, to the human mind. We cannot know before it happens. 

Do you choose to live? To you choose to breathe? Do you have the free will to 'live' without 'breathing'? 
Response: Living happens and living is not dependent on memory for the way or how you will live. 

What is 'Free Will'? How do you know what is Free Will and what is not? 
Response; If you were really interested to know you would have read the entire article it on the website. Let us see if it happens for it is neither depended on choice nor free-will. 

Do you choose to sneeze? 
Response: Sneeze may or may not happen, it reflects the precise movement of life which appears as choice or free-will. 

>>> Maya too is a thought in the mind, but that thought is wisdom and not knowledge.<<< 
Then how do you 'know' it is 'wisdom' and not knowledge? 
Response: When logic and reason is total you would know it is wisdom just as how you do know knowledge when logic and reason is not total. 

To 'know' it is wisdom is to have 'knowledge' that wisdom is wisdom. 
So to choose 'wisdom' and to choose 'knowledge' cannot be separated. 
Response: You cannot have them either. They both happen precisely when they are meant to happen. 

And it is only your 'free will' that is claiming one is different than the other. 
Response: It is knowledge that informs one is different than the other. 

I just noticed your moniker. 
>>> Coördinator Europe at Academy of Absolute Understanding<<< 
'Absolute Understanding'. 
Nice work if you can get it, and you can get it if you try. 

Response: If trying, albeit illusory happens to you, you can get it.

L24: I saw your response and 'choose' to not for forgo sleep to answer you .When I choose to take the time I will. 

I posted a reply earlier but it may have gotten lost, or it may still be there. If there are two responses, that is why. 

See you in a day or so.

L25: Man like any other living being is product of pure consciousness and recyclable product of nature called air, water, food etc. 

Choice maker is the consciousness in the body. Unfortunately I think that I am the body or mind or ego but in reality I am not that. I am the user of all these tools. 

The problem with human is he thinks everything about him but he never thinks that he is a thinker, feeler beyond the body, mind and ego. Till the time this disease of wrong notion remain in human he is never free although he has a will so .... no free will. 

But we must understand that whether we remove this disease or not there is some one who is free of this disease. That person does not live only within the skin but fully in cosmos. So it about your level of consciousness. 

From spiritual angle thinking that I am not free is a disease. And this disease is because of wrong knowledge and notion of our True self. The day True knowledge transcends disease wipes out and we come out of our skin encapsulated ego. 

I hope I didn't confuse and it helped you in understanding the free will.

AAU: Dear L25, 

Man is a reflection of consciousness and recyclable reflection of nature which is fire, air, water and earth (food is transformed form of earth). 
If you are not the ego how could you (the ego) be the user of the body or mind? 
When you are not the body mind or ego you can never be the thinker or feeler. Unless man realises that thinking, speaking and doing happens to him and he does not do them, he will neither be realised nor liberated from duality and the belief of free-will. 
Consciousness imparts a realisation to man, which is wisdom, that man is not the doer, speaker or thinker. And man cannot reach that wisdom by his effort. 
The true self is pure light. The day man understands and realises that knowledge is illusory he is free and wise.

L25: As a ego (small and body based), I am doer, knower, experiencer. 

Subtle body is constituted of mind, ego and intellect. Desires and impressions belongs to subtle body. Karma belongs to gross and subtle body, both. 

Causal body is seat of real I. That is connected to universal or cosmic I. Problem is mind which belongs to subtle body does not associate itself with causal body but with gross body. This happens by default, automatically, by nature of mind. 

If mind associate itself with causal body then you have free will and this is not different from cosmic will. Otherwise we do not have free will, because all is driven by our desires, preferences, likes, dislikes, past impressions and external environment. 

We are NOT light which is again a kind of energy and it is converted to mass. In reality we beyond mass energy duality. We are pure consciousness, unborn, immortal, unconvertible.

L21: Allow me to express an opinion. 

All this, does not change the fact that we are all going to die and we have no clue what comes after that. Our thoughts don't linger in the ether. We are dead until the creator/source/light decides to do something about it or not. 

All these fancy words only trick us into believing that we somehow 'understand' what existence is all about. We don't know and if we were to only understand that, then will we 'know'. 

I just like to keep things simple. I accept my fate, the parameters that I have to live by and to impact upon only that which I come into contact with be it animal or human. I leave the rest up to providence. 

Trying to know the answer to everything is a decent into a bottomless pit. All we can really do is have faith. Death is inevitable and is inherent upon all of us. The rest is just 'ego'. 

With all due respect.

AAU: Dear L25,
The ego ‘I’ is sound transformed, meaning the ego ‘I’ is sound. It is an illusory individual attached to an illusory body. The ego is an illusory knower and experiencer
Pure Light is intelligence. The subtle body is sound of a certain wave- length and the intellect in that wave-length transforms as the mind, and the ego. Light at a certain wave length and speed is sound. Desires and impressions are thoughts attached to the ego. Karma refers to the body which is a thought in the mind, and a thought is the subtle body for a thought is sound.
The real ‘I’ is pure light which is everywhere and reflects light that appears as the body and as sound light appears as the illusory mind. Sound does not associate with light for sound is light at lesser speed. Sound would not associate with light if sound was separate from light, but sound is not separate from light, just as thunder is not separate from lightning in the skies.
Causal body means that which relates to or acts as a cause, and a body means it has borders and is limited. The real ‘I’ does not have borders or is limited or acts to a cause and hence cannot be a body or a causal body. The ego is casual and relaxed at times; therefore the word casual is duality and refers to the gross body and the ego.
The ‘we’ is made up of atoms which is basically light so ‘we’ are an illusory reflection of light. Mass too is light for any mass is made up of atoms, which is basically light. Pure light and Consciousness is eternal. Consciousness appears as birth, mortality and convertible, albeit illusory.

AAU: Dear L21, 
Please express what you wish. It will be responded to with respect, care and concern for your well-being. 
Nothing dies Harold, everything including us transforms from one form to another, and all forms are light. We believe the creator decides because we believe we decide, we therefore believe the creator is an individual. The creator is pure light and light manifests everything, albeit illusory. 
Life has given man the intellect to understand that everything that exits is light by giving us science to make us understand what existence is. And when we understand that existence is light we also understand that the real which is pure light can never be known, and only its illusory reflections could be known. 
I appreciate you for crediting providence, I have understood, that what is meant to happen will only happen and no force on earth can stop it from happening, and what is meant not to happen will not happen and no force on earth can make it to happen This understanding brings in trust and patience to and with life. 
Trying to know an answer to everything is surely a decent into a bottomless pit, for an answer gives rise to a question. I again salute you for this statement. An answer is truly an answer that cannot be questioned and a question is truly a question that cannot be answered. The answer that cannot be questioned is, ‘everything that exists is made up of light’ and the question that cannot be answered is ‘what is the cause of light?’