Published on www.acadun.com
16th February 2014
Discussion Linkedin: “Think Tank” group
Tittle: article Dr. Shankar “Is time real in Life?”
L1: Is life real or just a dry run? Is this the only life we'll ever know? Is life a series of lives as we move through time? Is time real or juszt an imaginary unit of measure?
L2: Do you speak in the emptiness of Space ??
AAU: Dear L1, Life is an optical and auditory illusion of light and sound, if it feels like a dry run that too is illusory and not real. Illusory does not mean it does not exist, the illusory exists but the mind thinks illusory does not. The real does not exist in the manner the mind thinks the real exists. The life you think is life, but is not, is the only life we will ever know, albeit illusory. Life is singular and we pass through it, time is illusory. Time is illusory, an imaginary unit of definition. Time is only defined but not measured
AAU: L2, Speech happens in the space occupied by the speaker, albeit illusory.
L1: Thank you AAU, I'll sleep well tonight dreaming of your words, or maybe not (perhaps the dream is real and life the dream). Heavy topic but it is good to stretch the mind & imagination Sleep well
L3: Life on the planet, in this dimension is all an illusion. Time is one aspect of that illusion.
AAU: Dear L3, Correct. I affirm that life is illusory. Are you certain with logic and reason why life and time is illusory in this dimension?
L3: As certain as you are, AAU
L4: What is time? It has two different and independent dimensions: 1. Chronological Time: Measured by clock, time required to finish a task, obtain a degree from university etc. 2. Emotional time: time interval generated by emotions between two events that have some impact on my mind. If there is no impact of an event on my mind, time disappears.
AAU: Dear L4, How can man finish a task and obtain a degree from university when the smallest unit of time defined is one attosecond? I do not deny that tasks are finished and degrees are obtained from universities. How could an event or an emotion exist when an unit of time defined is one attosecond, meaning every moment is believed to be one attosecond while life within a moment is faster than one attosecond.
L5: My view Time happens in the context of thought. With thought we think of either past or future & time is only linked to these two aspects.. In the present , ideally, there is no thought & hence there is no time. . This does not go well with the way we are used to think about time. But this is the way it is. From Physics: I happened to read about the relativity of time. What is our present can be a past to or future to another civilization. Time again seems relative to motion & a concept. But am sure we will not be inclined to agree to this as most of our life depends on Time driven commitments.
AAU: L5, The present can be a past or future to another religion, but to them too it is in the form of a thought just as it is to any religion. Time is certainly relative to motion and a concept, as time is not measured but only defined by a clock. So, what could be our present? Is there time in the present moment?
L5: AAU, There is no time in the NOW as per my Understanding.
AAU: You are right L5, your understanding is absolute and not relative; therefore the now is the present which is timeless as there is no time within it. This makes life timeless, meaning absence of time, just as the sages have rightfully proclaimed. Therefore man cannot be the doer, for to do would require time. Just as the sages have rightly proclaimed that man is not the doer and the world is illusory. So what is a ‘moment’ or the ‘now’?
L5: It is Wakeful Alertness with the restfulness of Deep Sleep. It is called the 4th state or the Turiya .
AAU: Dear L5 I did not ask for a description or definition of the moment or the now. What I meant was, Is the moment singular or multiple, is the now singular or multiple.
L5: Please clarify what is meant by singular & multiple
L4: AAU: Is now singular or multiple or both or neither? Now can be an eternity but without break - same thing continuous - then it is long but singular. A small break, same feeling returns, as if time didn't pass - multiple. Neither when in deep sleep or in deep meditation?
AAU: Dear L5, Singular to mean whether there is one moment, or one, two, three etc., moments. Multiple to mean many moments
AAU: L4, The question asked was ‘is the now singular or multiple?’ And not ‘is now singular or multiple or neither’. The ‘now’ is not multiple; it is eternal as time does not exist in the now. As time is absent in the ‘now’ and light is present everywhere, how could there be a break in light? If there were a break, which is impossible, the break would be light too. The ‘now’ is meditative eternally, as it is timeless and thoughtless. Deep sleep is in the ‘now’ and therefore meditative, as time and thought are absent.
L5: The NOW is eternal ie when there is no thoughts & time, it is always the NOW . But this NOW is known by whom. It is by the individual. The individual's stream of consciousness to connect with the now can be broken or continuous depending on the degree of SELF abidance, I called this state as Turiya.
AAU: L5, When the stream of consciousness to connect with the ‘now’ which is timeless and thoughtless is continuous, does what is contained within the eternal ‘now’ appear real or illusory?
L4: Time is the interval between two events, which make an impact on my mind. If similar impacts occur with a gap, it is as if now has split in two/ multiple moments. If there is an impact on my mind the 'now' is no longer eternal, it converts itself into past and present - an illusion.
AAU: L4, If time was the interval between two events which make an impact on your mind and if similar impacts occur with a gap, the gap too would be an interval between impacts which would be time. How could time be the interval between two events when time does not exist even during an event itself? The ‘now’ never splits into multiple moments; the now is imagined as multiple moments. The ‘now’ will be understood and realised as eternal when the impact is understood to be illusory and not real.
L5: What is contained in the NOW is always eternal It is the experiencer who experiences it either as broken or continuous depending on the degree of abidance Once the aspirant is absorbed in the SELF in the NOW, there is nothing to see, appear or hear. The polarities disappear. He is one with the source. Where is the question of illusion here?
AAU: L5, The ‘now’ is light which is eternal, and what is contained in the ‘now’ is an illusory manifestation of light which is always changing and is impermanent. The experiencer experiences it as real in time, while he who abides in the SELF realises it as an illusory manifestation of light. The one who is absorbed in the self and is living, sees, hears, smells and tastes, touches, and lives like anyone else. He lives with others who appear before him but does not think like others do, for example Ramana Maharishi. He does not see, hear or appear once he is no more.
L5: I interpreted NOW as an opening into a eternal space. Hence i called what is contained in it as eternal.But from your post , i understand that you treat NOW as eternal & what it contains as illusory. It is a semantic difference & i do not see an understanding gap here. One who is one with the SELF, appears to be like normal beings with sensory faculties. They may even speak & participate in Normal interactions & i would say that it is one of ther modes. Their natural state is Nirvikalpa Sahaja Samadhi where the oneness is never broken. Sir Ramana Maharishi of Arunachala, was in that state always .. The specific word for that is Jivan Mukthi ie being in an eternal state ( thoughtless) when alive. For me Sri Ramana Maharishi who is my master, lives for ever & he is above all intellectual & philosophical meandearings. I will rest it at this.
AAU: Dear L5, Logical and lexical semantics mean that an opening and an eternal space would have to be the now and is the now. To suggest now as an opening to eternal space would imply that the eternal space is not in the now. I do not treat NOW as eternal, for it is eternal whether I or anybody treat it or not treat it. Logical and lexical would suggest it too. The understanding gap here is that you treat an opening and eternal space as if they are not in the now. If the opening and eternal space or not in the now where else would or could they be? Sri Ramana Maharishi did not see the now as an opening to eternal space. Ramana Maharishi was speaking and living normally as anyone does. He was thoughtless for he had realised the now to be timeless and thoughtless, and all thoughts to be illusory and not real. Ramana Maharishi had realised all actions, albeit illusory happen to man and man does not do them. I do not deny that Sri Ramana Maharishi does not live anymore, only his appearance cannot be seen as it is not present in the eternal now anymore. I am happy that Ramana Maharishi is your master. Dr. Vijai S Shankar lives in total reverence to Ramana Maharishi and I have had the opportunity to listen from him the brilliance of sage Ramana Maharishi and the brilliance of life and the illusory nature of the mind.
L6: The question is: "is my Self real along the time or is it just an illusion like the illusion of movement created by retinal persistence" ?
L7: This is all nonsense. Who exists to ask the question? An illusion? Of whom is the question asked? Another illusion? How long does it take to get an answer? Another illusion? I'll check back tomorrow. After I eat my breakfast, go to work and come home to look at this nonsense. (But I do find it amusing. Which is why I will waste the illusion that is my time.)
AAU: L6, If by self you mean the individual or the ego, the individual or the ego is just as illusory as is time and the illusion of movement.
AAU: L7, It will not be nonsense if you understand that an illusion does not mean it doesn’t exist, a mirage is an example that an illusion exits, for a mirage is a play of light. Since everything that exits is made up of atoms, which is basically light, it is wise to ponder whether all that exists, including your breakfast and going to work, could be a play of light too, but appear real to the mind. That is why the question was posted, is time real?
L6: L7, Without the retina persistence, my Thought would see separately and successively the 25 images per second of any "moving picture". (See Bergson's works) .My Thought has the illusion of seeing a movement but there is no. Why only the retina cells would be subject to persistence? No chemical reactions in the nature is immediate. So behave all the brain cells. The impression of a continuous Myself is an illusion. A good, productive and useful illusion. But an illusion.
L8: Why is it wise to ponder about illusions that appear real to the mind?
L7: >>> The impression of a continuous Myself is an illusion. A good, productive and useful illusion. But an illusion. <<< If yourself is an illusion then who is making the 'assertion' that it is an illusion?
AAU: L8 , It is wise to ponder about the real whether it is real or is it illusory.
AAU: L7, Correct. The who and the assertion too are illusory. Illusory does not mean it does not exist. Illusory means that it does not exist the way the mind thinks it exists.
L7: >>> Illusory means that it does not exist the way the mind thinks it exists.<<< Then the above assertion is also 'illusory' which means it negates itself and is THERFORE invalid. You aren't going to get anywhere with me on this. this is just another version of the "It's all relative Fallacy" that refutes itself because by saying 'It's all' it is claiming an Absolute while simultaneously claiming there are no Absolutes. Anything that is inherently self contradictory is fallacious and, therefore, not to be taken seriously. If everything the mind thinks is 'Illusory' than no one can ever know anything, which in your case might be true.
L9: Only Love is real.
L10: Time is the Lord here or there :) We've got a term in Islamic mysticism called "Ibn-ul-waqt" SON OF TIME/ERA n thats how we define the Vicegerant of God.
L7: I went back and read again some of the previous posts. I found this one particularly apropos. >>> The ‘now’ is light which is eternal, and what is contained in the ‘now’ is an illusory manifestation of light which is always changing and is impermanent. The experiencer experiences it as real in time, while he who abides in the SELF realises it as an illusory manifestation of light. The one who is absorbed in the self and is living, sees, hears, smells and tastes, touches, and lives like anyone else. He lives with others who appear before him but does not think like others do, for example Ramana Maharishi. He does not see, hear or appear once he is no more. <<< I think I'm in the wrong thread. I didn't realize this was the 'Overdosed on Shrooms' thread. >>> If time was the interval between two events which make an impact on your mind and if similar impacts occur with a gap, the gap too would be an interval between impacts which would be time. How could time be the interval between two events when time does not exist even during an event itself? <<< By being the beginning and the end of the two events. You are born, and you die. Two events in time. Time is the interval between these two events. Life is the interval between the two events and each event itself takes place in time. And all this is proven because you have a concept of 'time'. And if the concept of time is just an 'illusion' then what, exactly are you talking about?
AAU: L7, The assertion is illusory but nevertheless valid and wise, because the mind thinks everything that exists is real while it is not and cannot be either. The intelligence of life cannot be comprehended by the intellect in the mind. Whoever has stated “ It’s all relative fallacy” does not know as yet, that the absolute that could, is known or inferred will only be illusory, including this sentence, because the absolute cannot be known. If anything is self-contradictory, it is certainly fallacious. And the correct statement is illusory too. Man will come to know what he is meant to know, and all that he comes to know will be illusory and not real.
AAU: L9, Love is life, but not what the mind thinks or believes love is. The question posed is, is time real?
L9: ONLY LOVE IS REAL
AAU: L7, To begin something has to end and likewise something has to end for something to begin. Man is continuously moving from birth until death. Therefore a beginning and an end of something in between birth and death is imaginary and not actual. The exact moment of birth can never be known, the time of birth is a relative assumption by the doctor who gives birth, it is if andwhen he happens to look at a watch. A watch or clock on the other hand only defines time and does not measure time in life. Birth and death are two expressions of life which is a singular movement that appears as two events in the mind. The interval between these two illusory events is illusory too. Life happens in illusory time and not real time. I am not talking ‘about’ something, I am just sharing life as it is, which is illusory and not real. It is not illusory because I say so, it is illusory because it is so, whether anybody likes it or not.