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The Netherlands
18th May 2014
Discussion Linkedin: “What is absolute understanding?”
Absolute understanding is not more of relative understanding or the maximum of relative understanding. Absolute understanding is clarity that relative understanding is illusory and not real. Absolute understanding is not a known entity that could be experienced, just as non-duality is not a known entity that could be experienced. Illusory does not mean relative understanding does not exist. Illusory means that relative understanding does exist, but it does not exist in the manner the mind thinks it exists. The illusory exists as it is an inherent quality of light by which a deception of reality is imagined in the mind as an actuality. This is neither a belief nor a concept. It is based on scientific facts that everything known by man basically exists as light, and on a declaration of enlightened in their scriptures, that the world is illusory. Dr. Vijai S Shankar
18 May 2014
L21: Dear friends: beware of answering this apparent question. As Absolute Understanding is said (above) not to be a known entity, nor something that can be experienced, how can any question about it have any purpose other than as a bait for the unwary to swallow by attempting to answer? - whereupon they may be roundly dismissed (see previous threads from this source). Understanding is obviously dualistic and may lead no further than being caught in a net of mental concepts. Suggest shunning understanding and rest simply in awareness of what is, and see what happens in due course. May not appeal to clever-clogs, and also may not seem enough. But don't take the bait, just swim away and effortlessly enjoy the ocean.
L23: Absolute understanding is experiencing and its reflection implying consciousness. It all has to do with relativism, distracting dualities from whatever ..... See for more these 2 animations about Monism that is about Absolute Understanding : http://youtu.be/2n7fHz9VLfw & http://youtu.be/o5ZqN2hAUv4
AAU: L23, Absolute understanding is not an experience. Absolute understanding is clarity that an experience is illusory. Absolute understanding is a reflection of consciousness as everything else is too. Absolut understanding is not about relativism or duality. Absolute understanding is clarity that relativism and dualities are illusory and not real. Monism is a theory or doctrine that denies the existence of a distinction or duality in a particular sphere, such as that between matter and mind, or God and the world. A theory or doctrine however has dualism within it, and a theory or a doctrine cannot exist without duality. Monism is a doctrine that only one supreme being exists. This doctrine is true and that one supreme being is pure light as everything else including duality that exists is light, and science has proof that every atom of duality and that which exists is not made up of duality or by the things that exists, but every atom is energy which is light.
L23: I can agree with lots of sentences the way you write it, although some are obviously some kind of statements that are specifically yours. In a way I understand what it implies. Monism is no doctrine to me and at the same time living in a monadic way does not imply that dualism does not exist anymore. I think that's a difference of experiencing and getting aware of everyday in life that what most people can't deal with or are not capable to. As long as dealing with life duality exists, it's the art to bring it upto a monadic way of living.
24 may 2014
AAU: L23, I understand that Monism is no doctrine to you. But does not monism doctrine say duality does not exist? And if it was true, and I admit that it is true, would not the art to bring monism up to a monadic way of living be behaviour rather than authentic living? Is the monadic way present for you every moment of the day? If so, it is perfect, only you can tell and so too anyone can who observes you every moment of the day, for days, weeks, months and years.
L23: Monism is based upon HolYism, it doesn't exclude "anything" out; it integrates All-till-One ~ till Mon'O inlcuding N'one. Monadic living is authentic living (at least for me). Lots of people have to await the true Pro-Gress of this Pro-Cess. Anyone is a fractal that implies that being a Monad might be perfection. I'd rather deal with integrity (back to being healed regarding the source) ~ Wholism ~ # 9 as the symbol for that .....
AAU: L23, Regarding integrity, ‘what does back to being healed regarding the source’ mean? Does it mean you realize that you are fractal and so too is the source or you were healed of a disorder (antonym for fractal, as the synonym for fractal is pattern) to understand that you were fractal as the source?
L23: Look around you; how many indiviDUALS/IN-DIVIDU-als are acting integerly ? You may consider 'Per-Ficere' in a way to accomplish 'being integer' while remaining that (same) fractal .... a monadic fractal who is dealing with society, nature and universe as a WhoLYstic entity ~ according to this so called quote "so Great so Small" ...... (blogs) http://goo.gl/pCLFa0 & http://goo.gl/UaUZK8. It brings me also to your other interesting discussion : "Life is non-dual but appears dual in the mind." So if you agree with this then it implies there's this way 'back' .....
L7: AAU: "Illusory means that relative understanding does exist, but it does not exist in the manner the mind thinks it exists." Interpretation is not really subsequent to relative understanding, interpretations are what create relative understanding, they are the same thing...i see too much weight here being given to 'illusion,' which is just more relative understanding or interpretation laid over pure experience...this goes for 'absolute understanding' as well, which is tied together with 'illusion,' they are one in the same.
L23: Experiencing has more than 1 diaMENSionality as well : http://youtu.be/H0PsxiioTDw
L7: I would throw dimensions into that pile of relative understanding, more overlay there as well :)
L23: It's all about energy and (so) relative or other diamensionalities : Touch~Matter/Smell-Taste~ion/molecule/Hearing~Vibration molecules/Seeing~Frequency/Intuition~Resonance. Several diamensionalities or PluripleXities ....
L7: The way I see it is there is no reason to deny relative understanding, just can't hold any of it as an absolute truth....
L23: L7, that's right, the/each/all relationship(s) will be shown/will be clear while sufficiently integrating till the level of integrity or Monism ..... If relativity exists at this level (of mind), then absolutism exists too (Al-Thing-&-No-Thing)
AAU: L23, response to: "Look around you; how......." response; Every atom of that which exists in the world, including the world is not made up of the stuff that is present in the world or the stuff which is the world. The atoms are however made up of energy which is basically light. Therefore everything is fractal, because the world too is light. AAU
AAU: L23, Response to: "It brings me also to your other interesting discussion......." response, It does NOT imply there is a way back, meaning that you have to go somewhere else from where you are. You are already here and do not have to go anywhere else to get back. You are already here, when you understand that the dual in the mind is illusory and not real.
AAU: L7, response to: "AAU: "Illusory means that relative understanding does exist,......" Response: When a statement of relative understanding has different meanings the different meanings are an interpretation. Interpretation do not create relative understanding, interpretations are relative understanding. Relative understanding is either spoken or written. When man speaks only human breath comes out and not a letter or a word, the human breath contains mainly nitrogen, carbon-dioxide, oxygen and minor gases. Every atom of the gases is not made up of the gases but are made up of light. Therefore relative understanding is an auditory illusion of sound, which is light. The same applies to absolute understanding as well. Mysteriously, relative understanding is knowledge and absolute understanding is wisdom, Life is a mystery.
AAU: L23, Response to: "Experiencing has....." In any dimension an experience requires time and duality. Time and duality are not an actuality in life. Therefore an experience is illusory and not an actuality in life. AAU
L23: Now I understand why you're saying what you're saying AAU (after reading your website)about Light & Sound. Further on : "Time and duality are not an actuality in life." I think Actuality is the or part of personalized reality, like Time is a synthetic method of categorizing changes. So Time is about dimensioning changes to get a hold on these changes (categorzing :: Aristotl - Organon). If experiences cannot be expressed but represent feelings (intuition) does that make them per definition a illlusory; can't it be part of reality - an actuality, specific and individual as one's character (the whole human) allows it to be? The personalized reality as a actualized fractal ?
25 may 2014
AAU: L7, Correct. Dimensions are relative understanding, That the relative understanding of dimensions is illusory and not real is absolute understanding.
AAU: L23, Response to; "It's all about energy and (so)......" Response: Correct everything is energy and ebergy is light. 1) Touch is sound because when two hands clap there is sound and touch as well, and when hand touches matter there is sound which the limited mind does not hear but only feels touch. Sound is energy which is light at a lesser speed than visible light. 2) Smell is heat which is light, Taste is ion/molecule both of which are made up of atoms and atoms is energy which is light. 3) Hearing is sound waves and vibration is molecules of matter which are atoms that vibrate, and atom is energy which is light. 4) Seeing is wave lengths of light that enter the pupil. The eye does not see, the eye receives wave lengths of light. Every dimension or pluriplexity is a thought and a thought in the mind is subtle sound which is energy. AAU: L7, Response to: "The way I see it is there........." response: Relative understanding cannot be denied because they exist, and man did not make them to exist. Relative understanding has evolved within man as primitive man had none. Relative understanding is not the truth. They point out that they are the truth, but they are not. The absolute understanding, that relative understanding is illusory and not real, points to truth, which neither can be known nor experienced. The truth could be realised but cannot be known or experienced.
AAU: response to; "L7, that's right, the/each/all relationship(s) will be......... Response: You have written that touching, smelling, tasting, hearing and seeing is all about energy. This is correct because they are energy and energy is light. Relationship is recognised and experienced by touch, smell, taste, hearing and seeing. This only means that relationship too is an illusory manifestation (reflection) of light. That reflection is an inherent characteristic of light is indicated by a mirror. Every atom of a mirror is neither mirror nor glass, if it were, a mirror would be real. Every atom of a mirror is light and neither mirror nor glass. It is evident to man that a mirror reflects and therefore reflection is an inherent characteristic of light. Light is monism or advaita (All thing & yet no thing).
AAU: L23, Response to: "Now I understand why......" Response: Personalized reality of actuality, time and changes exist in the mind as thoughts and not in life as an actuality. Thought is however subtle sound and sound is energy which is light. Time is a thought in the mind and not an actuality in life, and is needed to get hold of changes, albeit illusory. Instinct is part of life (Light) and not part of reality, because reality is without instincts (feelings). You have written that touch, smell, taste, hearing and seeing which is reality to man and feelings as well is energy, would not then instinct (feelings) as a reality be energy too? And energy is light.
L23: "Personalized reality of actuality, time and changes exist in the mind as thoughts and not in life as an actuality." ~ It's a way of reading or interpreting it. While living it is your life; it is during your life. Any actuality (perception & interpretation added by all kinds of energy - in-formated ~ in unique and individual forms poured ~ energy ~ due to one's uniqueness) is therefore as individual and unique as the individual itself. It may be that instinct has some relations to reality; reality may be partly existing of instinctive aspects. It's what you say what I find very interesting that all is energy, implying ~ light is energy so all is light.Popper's way of reasoning : Falsification. Funny as well that matter that is mirrorred isn't matter but light. In the first place what do we perceive looking at matter itself ? A trick (back up or redundant) for our mind to deal better with all outer us is touch, to ensure that our assumption of what being seen is matter (as the lowest dimension of energy). And so on for these other senses including the sixth ...
L23: Maybe something different : (What's beyond (our) limitations - Bohm) Light = EM phenomenon and the first aspect to be sensed (after intuitive feeling). So perhaps all energy is EM .....? (instead of simple light as a part of this spectre)
L7: Thanks AAU. I would say any form of understanding if it takes place is relative understanding, claimed by the relative viewpoint. The absolute doesn't really have a viewpoint to claim any type of understanding, this is just an intimate state of being :)
AAU: L7, Absolute understanding is not a known entity with descriptions, just like love or life. Absolute understanding is clarity that relative understanding is illusory and not real.
L23: Perhaps all ´relative understandings´ are ´absolute understanding entities´ themselves. That´s the world of fractalization. No entity whether integer or not is the other entity. When integer they represent theit absolute understanding in their own unique way ~ congruence of authenticity - thinking/talking = acting.
26 may 2014
L7: "Absolute understanding is clarity that relative understanding is illusory and not real." Hi AAU, sounds like a viewpoint to me, therefore relative understanding.
L7: "Perhaps all ´relative understandings´ are ´absolute understanding entities´ themselves. That´s the world of fractalization. No entity whether integer or not is the other entity. When integer they represent theit absolute understanding in their own unique way ~ congruence of authenticity - thinking/talking = acting." That's trippy :)
AAU: L7, A view point exists if there were opposites to beliefs a point refers to. Absolute understanding has no opposites to its beliefs as it has none and does not refer to any belief either.
AAU: L7, Relative and absolute understanding is the same as regards letters, words and language. They are not the same with respect to the meaning they imply or point too. This has been pointed out many times. The meanings within relative understanding differ too and the meanings are not fractal. Fractal refers to geometrical structures and not to meanings.
L23: In the world of fractalization - right as being said by AAU - fractals are geometrcal structures. This can be literally and figuratively used. If fractals at a higher level of orders represent some meaning then it would be obvious that fractals of a lower level orders represent meanings of a lower order, because of all integrality they ar aligned in same way. (compare it to hypernonyms). The issue with the highest order or absolute order or understanding is that's there's only one of it. The 'lower' you get the more orders exist so more relativity emerge from that point of view. Monism acknowledges all relative/lower more or less opposite(opposite from their meaning/situation/individual) fractals representing meanings by ever integrating all relatives/orders till the level of M'One ~ the so called Absolute understanding or capability or intelligence to do so.
L7: "A view point exists if there were opposites to beliefs a point refers to. Absolute understanding has no opposites to its beliefs as it has none and does not refer to any belief either." AAU, when you claim absolute understanding is clarity that relative understanding is illusory and not real, your dealing with beliefs. 'Illusion' only has significance and meaning from a personal point of view. Personal viewpoint = landscape of beliefs. The only thing that's not another set of beliefs is what you are as Awareness.
AAU: L23, respond to: "Perhaps all ´relative understandings´ are......" Identical text was sent by Tim Osawa. The text has been responded to L7, please refer to the response in his thread. Thank you AAU
AAU: L23, Which comment from me is a confirmation of which quote from you L23?
AAU: L7, A view point exists if there were opposites to beliefs a point refers to. Absolute understanding has no opposites to its beliefs as it has none and does not refer to any belief either.
L23: Some strange maybe funny situations; if L7 is using parts of my quotes - that's of course okay - then it appears strange to me that you ~ AAU ~ address to Tim with your arguments ..... ?
AAU: L23, Response to: "Maybe something different :......." response: What is beyond our limitations is Pure light, that could neither be known with descriptions, seen nor experienced. There are some forms of light that the human eye cannot see, such as radio waves, ultraviolet rays, x-rays, infrared rays, micro waves and gamma rays. Human eye can only receive visible light rays and think light. EM is light and so are all forms of energy, electrical, mechanical, magnetic, thermal, etc. The internet is a clue that EM is light. Internet is not a place that could be visited, but yet contains places within it that could be visited within it. And internet is nothing but analogue electricity and magnetism in digital format signals, and electricity and magnetism is light. The television is yet another example, wherein analogue electricity and magnetism in digital format signals appears as reality. The CD’s are yet another example wherein analogue electricity and magnetism in digital format signals appears as music or human voice. Life is filled with analogue electricity and magnetism which is light.
L23: "Personalized reality of actuality, time and ....." => OR actuality (error) ~~~~ Strange, all comes together within human and you deny that they don't associate in no way. In what way is instinct spontaneous but a controle system in it self concerning several aspects themselves ? Where instinct is static and intuition dynamic and intellect may even be mechanistic, they all depend on and associate with each other, so whether or not primary related to reality, they deal with it any way. To my intuitive opinion .....
L23: "What is beyond our limitations is Pure light, that could neither be known with descriptions, seen nor experienced. There are some forms of light that the human eye cannot see, such as radio waves, ultraviolet rays, x-rays, infrared rays, micro waves and gamma rays. Human eye can only receive visible light rays and think light." Response : putting it that way I can live with it, and don't need to argue points of view as long as we address to the same vision and absolute understanding it helps me (and mutually you)
AAU: L23, Response to: ""Personalized reality of actuality, time....." response: Instinct has no relation with reality; instinct is a spontaneous, uncontrollable and unpredictable movement, albeit illusory. Reality does not exist of instinct; reality is an illusory interpretation of instinct. False meaning illusory and not right interpreted as wrong. When we look at matter we perceive a thought as matter and not matter itself. When we touch, we assume that what we see is matter, but do not realise that we assume a thought to be matter, but actually do not see matter as matter. Matter can only be thought and the thought is imagined as seeing matter. All the five senses exist as thoughts in the mind, and so too the sixth sense (instinct) exists as a thought in the mind. Life on the other hand simply moves as light every moment, meaning the moment is eternal and not multiple. Light is advaita (the English synonym is monism).
L23: Dealing with 'this matter/dialogue' in this way is okay It may be true and so other things may be true as well. Keep on telling that (the Popper falsification) "all = energy ~ light = energy => all is light" then there's nothing to discuss about no more. If you want me to accept I will, This then implies with David Bohm's words that there's nothing more beyond limits than this possible falsification may imply. So stopping to do research in the world of intuition and imaginary thinking has become useless because all is energy while ignoring that there exist more than 1 kind of energetic dimensions although all are deductions from its highest order (E-M). Energy is only a structure to offer information an opportunity to settle, to give information a hold-on, so considering this even light or energy may be unimportant; it's about the code as I understood of Bohm from his interviews, Monism is represented by the highest order Standing Wave ..... (animation "My~KeY" : http://youtu.be/H0PsxiioTDw
AAU: L23, Response to: "In the world of fractalization - right ........" response: Absolute understanding is not about right or wrong, fractal or chaotic, the understanding is whether the fractals are illusory or real. Therefore no matter how integrated the relative understanding is till the level of M’One, they are understood to be illusory and not real by absolute understanding. AAU
AAU: L7, Response to: ""A view point exists if there........." Response: Yes, absolute understanding deals NOT with its beliefs, as it has none, but deals with the beliefs of relative understanding. Illusion is a personal point of view to relative understanding, but to absolute understanding illusion is arrived through scientific reasoning and facts for example the mirror. What you are as awareness is a belief of relative understanding, this is understood to be illusory by absolute understanding, because the absolute can never be known or experienced to know what you are as awareness.
AAU: L23, The quote marks were overlooked, my apologies. It is better if a name is mentioned before the quote or the symbol@.
AAU: L23, Response to: "What is beyond our limitations ........." response: It is not put in that way to live with it, it is that way, meaning it is a fact and not a point of view to live with it. The fact is irrefutable and you are welcome to refute it with scientific reasoning and logic. Absolute understanding does not address to any vision or a view, as advaita (absolute understanding) is neither a point of view nor a vision.
27 may 2014
L7: AAU wrote: "What you are as awareness is a belief of relative understanding, this is understood to be illusory by absolute understanding, because the absolute can never be known or experienced to know what you are as awareness." Thanks AAU. Yes if your perceiving what you are as awareness, this can only be conceptual, since at the deepest level your too intimate with yourself to perceive what you are, one can only discover their actual viewpoint as that. The absolute is not known by any particular object, it is 'knowing' itself, experiencing itself.... However this viewpoint of mine is still being claimed and understood at a personal level. If there is any type of understanding taking place, it could only come from a personal viewpoint, therefore what I would classify as relative understanding. Self knowledge I would say is a deeper understanding of your true viewpoint, however even this is still relative understanding. Again, 100% intimacy with Awareness is the only thing without viewpoint, and the only thing I would classify as absolute, it goes beyond any type of understanding, just life living itself.... Excuse me if i'm misunderstanding you, words have a funny way to them :)
L21: AAU wrote: "What you are as awareness is a belief of relative understanding, this is understood to be illusory by absolute understanding" etc. No, Sir it is no belief, nor is it any thing (illusory or otherwise), nor is it graspable by intellect or theorising, neither can it be practised. Nor can it be dismissed as attempted above. Nor denied. AAU knows an aweful lot but I wonder if he knows at all what it is to rest as awareness and let things be as they are. If so please tell us about that, for a change.
AAU: L23, response to: "Dealing with 'this matter/dialogue' in ....." Response: Firstly, Karl Popper’s criterion is based on the presence of confirming and disconfirming evidences of theories. But that the existence is made up of atoms which is universally accepted by scientists is a fact and NOT a theory and there is a total absence of disconfirmation of the fact that every speck of existence is made up of atoms and that the energy within an atom is light. This fact is nothing to discuss about, and surely I do not want you to accept it, but understand the fact and that it is unwise to take life for granted. Also understand that what you write is illusory but is nevertheless the truth to you, as this is the understanding that has evolved and sophisticated within you. Surely, David Bohm has never implied that every speck of the world is NOT made up of atoms to falsify the fact that it is. Probably, the declaration that which is within limits is illusory did not evolve within David Bohm. Evolution does not stop, and neither will its sophistication. The entire sunlight is EM, and only certain wave-lengths of the sunlight is visible light, therefore EM is not the highest energy. Energy is not a structure because any structure and energy would be light too. Therefore energy is not a structure that gives information, light IS information, for example a USB stick or a computer is filled with information in the form of light. Light is important and cannot be unimportant, because without light life would not exist, surely David Bohm would have known this. Any code is possible only because of light.
L4: AAU: "But that the existence is made up of atoms which is universally accepted by scientists is a fact and NOT a theory" The only thing I saw today that comes close to a fact, is a facteur (French for postman - I'm in France right now). Actually, I never in my life saw a fact. So this must be mindstuff once more. In science, so-called facts are theories / assumptions / ways of perceiving that are not questioned (for the time being). In reality, facts don't exist.
AAU: L21, Response to: "AAU wrote: "What you are as awareness is a belief........" Response: To relative understanding the word ‘awareness’ is taken to mean ‘to know’. But to absolute understanding the word ‘awareness’ means if you are aware, you would realise that everybody is simply moving and NOT doing any actions, or awareness means the ‘absolute’ which neither can be known nor experienced, because to experience duality and time would be required and the absolute has neither. So man cannot be aware (meaning the absolute) as to what he is, whatever he thinks he is would be a belief, because he KNOWS what he is but NOT aware of what he is. If you mean to let things be as they are every moment of the day, one needs to be honest if that is possible every moment of the days, weeks, months, and years till the end of your life time..
AAU: L7, Response to: "AAU wrote: "What you are as awareness......" response: What you write confirms the above quote "What you are as awareness is a belief of relative understanding…” There is no misunderstanding by you.
L4: Hmm, I posted a comment but it doesn't show. So maybe I'm going to repeat myself (if it later pops up): AAU writes: "To relative understanding the word ‘awareness’ is taken to mean ‘to know’." It is your assumption and probably projection what the word 'awareness' "is taken to mean". And your assumtion is wrong. Awareness is before knowing.
L4: AAU writes: "If you mean to let things be as they are every moment of the day, one needs to be honest if that is possible every moment of the days, weeks, months, and years till the end of your life time.." Well, I agree on that one. And being honest about that: One can have the impression of doing, but that's an illusion. There is no doer. So though this also implies 'letting be' is the same kind of illusion, these words are closer to truth than 'not letting be'.
29 May 2014
AAU: L4, Response to: "L21 says: "No, Sir it is......." Response: If you say that what L21 says, is an expression of absolute understanding, point out where in the quote by www “What you are as awareness is a belief of relative understanding, this is understood to be illusory by absolute understanding" has anything been dismissed or denied?
AAU: L21, Response to: "David Bohm was a........." Response: Jiddu krishnanurti was in the back street of Dr.Vijai Shankar, Krishnamurti was their family friend. Please mention what is it that you can confirm?
AAU: L4, Response to: "AAU: "But that the existence is made up of atoms......" response: Surely there are cars; trees etc., in France, and you would have seen them. But, have you seen any of your thoughts? Everything known is therefore mind stuff whether you like it or not. The mind stuff though present, but cannot be seen, is however illusory and not real. Postman, cars, trees etc., are facts in relative reality that exist, albeit illusory. In Absolute reality whether they exist or not cannot be either known or experienced.
AAU: L4, Response to: "Hmm, I posted a comment but it doesn't show. So......." response: If awareness were BEFORE knowing, you would be able to premeditate the aliveness (action, word or thought) within a moment with certainty. But you cannot, you only come to know the aliveness (action, word or thought) within a moment after it is alive and never before the moment is alive.
L21: A while back I wrote about my experiences of David Bohm and of Krishnamurti neither of whom were illusory and both of whom I had the privilege to meet. My comments were electronically scrambled which I took to mean they were not 'meant' to appear. It seems that AAU managed to pick up some fragments so I need to explain to him that I prefer now not to go into detail about all that as I do not want to be told how to think about it. I will only remind those who know, that David thought dialogue very important. What would he have made of the dialogue, if that is what it is, that goes on here? I can only guess what K thought of Dr Vijay and of his 60 volumes of a Gita (hope I got that right!) but I cannot imagine they (not the volumes) were even remotely aligned. Perhaps I will be corrected.
L4: AAU writes: "Surely there are cars; trees etc., in France, and you would have seen them." No AAU, I haven't.
30 May 2014
L4: AAU writes: "If awareness were BEFORE knowing, you would be able to premeditate the aliveness (action, word or thought) within a moment with certainty" No AAU, wrong assumption. And there is no such thing or action or whatever you assume it is, called premeditation.
L4: AAU writes: If you say that what L21 says, is an expression of absolute understanding, point out where in the quote by www “What you are as awareness is a belief of relative understanding, this is understood to be illusory by absolute understanding" has anything been dismissed or denied? AAU, please let's keep things as simple as they are. Your statement "what you are as awareness is a belief of relative understanding" is dismissing and / or denying the very nature of awareness and as such shows once more you haven't got a clue what you are theorizing about....
AAU: L4, resonse to: "AAU writes: "If you mean to let things be as they are......." Happy for you that you agree, because if anyone were honest every moment of the day, days, weeks, months and years, he would understand that the doing and the not doing happen by itself, and that man is not the doer, speaker or thinker, but yet they all happen or not happen, albeit illusorily.
AAU: Dear L21, Response to: "A while back I wrote about my experiences of ..........." response: Neither Krishnamurthi nor Bohm were not illusory to them or to you? And what do you understand by illusory? I have explained that illusory does not mean that krishnamurthi or Bohm do not exist. Dr. Vijai has written only 7 volumes of Kaivalya Gita and not 60. He is unable to publish the rest for lack of funds. The seven volumes were published much later after Krishnamurthi’s demise. Of course the books are not aligned with Krishnamurthi, it is much deeper than what he said.
AAU: Dear L4, response to: "No AAU, I haven't........." Surely you would have driven to France, travelled by train or flown to France. If you had driven you would be in the car, if you travelled by train, you would have taken a taxi or driven by a friend from and to the station in Holland or France. If you had flown, there would have been many cars at the airport. And surely there are trees, where you are? You still cannot see them?
AAU: Dear L4, response to: "No AAU, wrong assumption........." response: It is not an assumption; it is a fact of life that it is impossible to premeditate the aliveness within a moment with certainty. If it is a wrong assumption please explain why it is a wrong assumption? Premeditate means conscious, intentional, wilful, deliberate, or thought-out.
AAU: Dear L4, response to: "Your statement "what you are as awareness is........." response: The nature of awareness is neither dismissed nor denied, because the nature of awareness is pure light that can neither be known nor experienced. Absolute understanding does not theorize, it explains that theories are illusory (illusory DOES not mean it does not exist) and not real. Absolute understanding neither dismisses nor denies theories.
L4: AAU: "If awareness were BEFORE knowing, you would be able to premeditate the aliveness (action, word or thought) within a moment with certainty" L4: "No AAU, wrong assumption. And there is no such thing or action or whatever you assume it is, called premeditation. " AAU: "It is not an assumption; it is a fact of life that it is impossible to premeditate the aliveness within a moment with certainty." L4: "If awareness were BEFORE knowing, you would be able to premeditate the aliveness (action, word or thought) within a moment with certainty" is an assumption you make. Awareness is before knowing - and you can reason whatever you want, that won't change anything. And again: very sloppy reasoning. I'll use the same line of reasoning in another example just to show how ridiculous it is. If seven o'clock is BEFORE eight o'clock, you can play football with your own head. You can't play football with your own head, so seven o'clock is not before eight o'clock.... See how once more you use if.. then statements which give the illusion of using logic, but the content does not have an reasonability in it at all? Wake up, AAU.
L4: AAU: "Surely there are cars; trees etc., in France, and you would have seen them." L4: "No AAU, I haven't." AAU: "Surely you would have driven to France, travelled by train or flown to France. If you had driven you would be in the car, if you travelled by train, you would have taken a taxi or driven by a friend from and to the station in Holland or France. If you had flown, there would have been many cars at the airport. And surely there are trees, where you are? You still cannot see them?" L4: No AAU, I don't. Nobody ever saw any car.
L4: AAU: <<Response to: "Your statement "what you are as awareness is........." response: The nature of awareness is neither dismissed nor denied, because the nature of awareness is pure light that can neither be known nor experienced. Absolute understanding does not theorize, it explains that theories are illusory (illusory DOES not mean it does not exist) and not real. Absolute understanding neither dismisses nor denies theories.>> L4: So you're even in denial of your own being in denial.
L20: "what you are as awareness is ......... " to get there, ask what is non-absolute understanding ? generally we learn of a thing through its absence. Is a question non-absolute understanding ? To discuss or debate, are these good examples of non-absolute understanding ? What is absolute (complete, total, utter, perfect) if all the apparent elements of this moment are in this universal continuous flux, all matter is a constant change. What could be absolute ? an idea ??
AAU: L4, Response to: ""If awareness were BEFORE ........." response: It is not an assumption L4. It is a fact of life and that is why man is not certain of every moment of his life. Man lives in uncertainty, hoping and wishing to be certain of life. He is certain of what he will do in life but not certain of every moment of life. And when it happens he believes he has done it. Any one would know this is illogical content. Of course you can play football with your own head. Anyone knows seven o’ clock is BEFORE eight o’clock on the watch. The contents do not have reason if you do not understand logic and reasoning at a deeper sense. You have not understood the meaning of illusion. Read the thread again where the explanation is given.
AAU: L4, So how did you get to France without seeing any car? Not only you but no one also saw a car? How about a tree? You do not see this also and so too no one else has seen a tree? Have you seen a car in Holland and a tree?
AAU: L4, Again I repeat, my being is not denied The being cannot be known or experienced by man to know anything about the being or to deny it.
AAU: L20, Response to: ""what you are as awareness......." response: We learn of a thing through its absence, only because the thing that is absent can and could be known. You cannot learn about the thing that is absent if it can never be known, because it is know the known. Non-absolute understanding is relative understanding. If non-absolute understanding is understood to be relative understanding, it certainly could be discussed or debated whether non-absolute understanding (relative understanding) is illusory or real. Absolute understanding is clarity that relative understanding is illusory and not real, because every atom of all apparent elements in this moment is light and appear to be in a universal flux and changing spontaneously, uncontrollably and unpredictably. Absolute is surely an idea but not absolute understanding.
31 May 2014
L4: AAU we are talking absolute understanding here. So stop throwing all that relative nonsense at me.
L20: AAU says : "Absolute is surely an idea but not absolute understanding." how come ??? how does the idea of absolute not, correlate with absolute understanding ?? Why must absolute understanding divorce itself from all conceivable reality. Are you saying that absolute understanding is only possible by God like intelligence. Which might mean that only you AAU, can know absolute understanding because only you have achieved God status in this game called life. Sincerer Apologies for the tone but AAU uses a style of provocation and denial to spread his gospel. The effect is to bring the student to the brink of intellectual suicide and thereby face his greatest demon. What saves us from brink of insanity is the realisation that no part of this universe benefits, expands or grows from absolute understanding or non-absolute understanding. It was a Koan (paradoxical anecdote riddle) with no solution. A provocation towards enlightenment. Very clever …………..
AAU: L4, Absolute is the opposite of relative and this is common sense and relative knowledge. But, absolute understanding is not the opposite of relative understanding. Absolute understanding is clarity that relative understanding is illusory and not real. Whatever is relative therefore is not non-sense to absolute understanding; also whatever is relative is understood by absolute understanding to be illusory and not real. Even the word non-sense is explained by absolute understanding why it is illusory and not real. Also absolute understanding does not mean that a car, tree etc., are not seen and do not exist. Absolute understanding explains why a car, tree etc., are illusory and not real, though they exist and are seen by human beings.
L4: AAU you haven't got a clue what you are messing with. Relative points toward: in relation to. It is therefore dualistic in nature. Absolute is without reference. It is the expression of oneness. Every single effort to try to express the absolute is ridiculous... oneness expressing oneness to oneness. It can only use 'relative ways of expressing' to that which is not relative. So it always falls short and is nothing but 'a pointer'. You AAU, what you do, is something ridiculous. You try to reason - which always is within the relative domain - yourself (us) into the absolute. And you keep on shifting from relative to absolute and back again to prove your point, mainwhile only dismissing yourself in the act and everything you claim to know. This has been explained to you many times, by different people, on different threads, but your head seems to be so filled with your 'absolute nonsense' that is does not come through. Or it doesn't suit to you egoic way of positioning yourself as the 'sharer of absolute understanding'. I'd say: let go of that missionary position. (Fun intended.) AAU, I am not talking to you. I don't care about you. You are just a story made up by you. I'm talking to something deeper, that which is prior to AAU. That you can trust. Let go of the stories, the theories, just be. And when you just are, and something pops up in your mind again, see it for what it is, love if, if you feel like it, but don't believe it, it's just mental puke. So don't throw it up on us. It has no relevance. Absolutely none. Stop talking and thinking about cars for you never really saw a car. There is no AAU. There is nothing to share. Let go of the 'nering' and just 'be'. You are prior to AAU. (I'm sorry about the many edits - hit the 'add' button prematurely)
AAU: L20, Response: Absolute does not correlate with absolute understanding because absolute could be an idea, belief, theory or a fact. But absolute understanding has none. Response: Absolute understanding does not divorce itself from reality; it only explains that all conceivable reality is illusory and not real. Man cannot premeditate the aliveness (action, word or thought) within a moment with certainty, so how could man say what understanding is possible within a moment with certainty? The possibility of understanding depends on evolution and its sophistication, on which man has no control. Response; To relative understanding it would mean that only AAU knows absolute understanding, but not to absolute understanding. Absolute understanding is concerned with sharing wisdom and not with names. Response: Neither is anything denied nor is anything proclaimed to be a gospel. It is to be realised that every part of this universe expands and grows as it is meant to and is not depended on absolute understanding or relative for its growth or expansion, because neither absolute or relative understanding make a moment happen wherein the universe grows and expands, albeit illusorily.
AAU: L4, Response: Absolute is certainly without reference and so how could absolute be the expression of oneness, because an expression is with reference. Understand absolute means oneness. Response: Absolute understanding does not express the absolute. It only points to the absolute that it is pure light that can neither be known nor experienced, by explaining that everything that is expressed is an illusion of reflected light. Response: Reason and logic have evolved in man and man has not made them happen to him. Life has evolved within man the reasons and logic that light exists as man and mind, albeit illusorily. Response: Man cannot talk to something deeper than man, because it is only the ego that talks and the ego does not know anything deeper than itself. Response: I am sure I see a car and think many other things too. Please tell the police or the taxi driver that you never really saw a car. Response: Please convince the taxman that there is no AAU. Do you mean you do not pay taxes? Response: There is pizza, knowledge and wisdom to share. Response: Why is it that you cannot just ‘be’ instead of ‘nering’?
1 June 2014
L4: You're dancing alone, AAU.
AAU: L4, Response: We are born alone and die alone and are alone between too every moment, in the timeless and thoughtless ‘here and now’ which is life. We feel lonely only in the mind in illusory time, believing it is life, but it is not. The dance of life is wisdom which makes us to admire life and recognise who we really are, in the ‘here and now’. The dance of life is knowledge too, which in the mind makes us dismiss and deny life, for example ourselves, cars, trees etc., and makes us to believe who we are not.
L4: AAU writes: "The dance of life is knowledge too, which in the mind makes us dismiss and deny life, for example ourselves, cars, trees etc., and makes us to believe who we are not." AAU, now what did I tell you just now, you naughty lad! Once more: don't believe your thoughts. Don't believe in cars, don't dismiss cars. And don't bother to think about what you are or are not. You are what you are, no matter what your thoughts on it may say.
AAU: L4, Response: The knowledgeable do not understand that when you do not believe in thoughts or in cars you do NOT dismiss/deny cars or human beings, as you did. Also the knowledgeable do not understand that when you do NOT believe in thoughts you will neither be talking nor writing, but you are. The wise neither think about what they are nor what they are not, they live life, while the knowledgeable behave like who they are NOT, but do not live life. “You are what you are” is exactly what has been shared from the beginning of the thread, and that is ‘you are an illusion of light’, no matter what thoughts may say.
2 June 2014
L20: Very kind -- AAU said - you are an illusion of light’, no matter what thoughts may say. - Please repeat this sentence many times to yourself, think about it, meditate and contemplate it. For as long as it takes. Mantra this AAUiseum until - all that is left is the first two words, you are. It is this simplicity, which is our pure truth - our complex paranoia of egotistical self and its baggage of human intelligence is the cloud upon the sanctuary. Garand is, L20 is, Barack Obama is. These illusions of light do manifest in the now. The illusion is very real. To truly understand this you have to love the Mystery and abandon the solution. Enlightenment if you prefer - is when you can celebrate our truth of paradoxical irony. To enjoy reality as the universal contradiction, you and your mind are everything and nothing at the same instant. You are the creator and the slave. You are the God of everything and nothing. The glass has always been half empty and half full at the same instant. Not either or both just a paradox. Our choice is our of egotistical foreplay with delusion. The glass is, the water is, our observance of the glass is. Garand is right but he does not know why. There is no why but AAU needs to feed why to resolve this our divine paradox with absolute understanding. Absolute understanding is a realisation that YOU ARE. It would seem that absolute understanding is in denial of the joy and celebration of our human paradox. Given a choice I am convinced happiness is the best idea. Love the Mystery …………. Dance in the rain, why not ??
AAU: L20 Hughes, Response: The first two words left which is ‘you are’ would be illusory too, if I am is illusory, because it is only the ego who claims ‘you are’. Response: That ‘you are’ is illusory is the simplest truth and not our or your truth, again it is only the ego which claims the truth to be ours or yours. The baggage of human INTELLECT which is knowledge is however illusory. Response: “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein. Response: Love is unconditional, and ‘have to love the mystery’ is however a condition. Therefore if you have to love the mystery, it would not be love. Response: Enlightenment if you prefer - is admiration of life’s intelligence which is light that projects paradoxes to the intellect in the mind. Response: Illusion is not an universal contradiction to reality, because illusion is an explanation that everyday reality is an illusion of light. Illusion does not contradict the existence of reality. You and your mind are illusory and not nothing. You can say everything is present but yet absent. Who you say you are, you are not; neti neti. Response: The observation including the paradox is illusory and not real. Response: It is obvious to AAU by common sense, reason (general and scientific) and logic that the world, man and mind are illusory. The divine paradox is nothing to be resolved; there is clarity that it is illusory. Response: Absolute understanding is clarity who YOU ARE NOT. Response: Absolute understanding does not deny the joy and celebration of human paradoxes. It is clarity that only the illusory can be joyous about and celebrated and not the real. Happiness is an idea, because to man, an excited mind is happiness while happiness is neither excitement nor its opposite.
L4: Wow AAU, way to go....
L21: L20 writes: 'love the Mystery and abandon the solution'. What a breath of fresh air in this mostly tiresome forum. Sorry folks, but ain't it so?
L4: "Enlightenment is admiration of ...." No AAU, admiration is the result of thinking. "Happiness is an idea." No AAU, your definition of hapiness is an idea. Hapiness if, however, an expression of life itself, it is the expression of our true nature. If happiness would be located anywhere, it would be in the heart. Stop thinking, and dance in the rain, if only just for once.
AAU: L4, Response to: "Wow AAU, way to go...." Response: Relative understanding always has a way to go and also tries to go that way, whereas absolute understanding reveals clarity is ‘here and now’ and there is nowhere to go. The knowledgeable (relative understanding), when they do not believe in thoughts they either dismiss or deny what the thoughts inform, because they believe by thoughts that something is more real than what the dismissed and denied thoughts inform to be real. The wise (absolute understanding) too do not believe in thoughts, but they do not dismiss or deny the thoughts, but explain that the thoughts dismissed and denied by the knowledgeable (relative understanding) are illusory.
L20: Thanks L21 and L4, Very kind and much appreciated. AAU sells absolute understanding as an Koen or paradoxical anecdote. Gerend says stuff like - Absolute understanding is clarity who YOU ARE NOT. i might reply - Does this suggest that only AAU has the ability to absolutely understand ??? my guess is that AAU will tell you at this point nothing exists, even illusion is an delusion. Because if - Absolute understanding is clarity who YOU ARE NOT. Then logically (big mistake) If , absolute understanding has clarity of knowing YOU ARE NOT - it must thereby knows what it is. Is our conscious awareness of this delusion of illusion, our failure to understanding to achieve the absolute. We humans are the failure absolute understanding ??? I know this music well .............. I like AAU he is never right or wrong. Always intellectually poking away at an egotistical yearning for understanding. The golden fleece of absolute anything might be found over there, in them there hills. !!!! a very old game. The sound of one hand clapping is to absolute understand that my mind and this moment support my faith in me being. A AAUisum is the loss of faith and the surrender to a bottomless pit where no other person can compare and get it right.. I choose to be L20 and believe in Happiness. The absolute understanding of this is for me to enact and experience. Hence the divine historical fact I AM THAT I AM this ancient and true, absolutely real for me. Not AAU. My friend’s dog likes to chase its tail until it gets tired or board …………… maybe ???
L21: L20 writes: 'My friend’s dog likes to chase its tail until it gets tired or board'. Well I am tired and bored so maybe I'm a dog. Fine! Will AAU ever get tired of being right and making others wrong. Oldest boring game in town. And too exhausting for those interested in the effortless, and being happy and dancing, like L20 - simple. And therefore suspect?
AAU: L21, @L21 L20 writes: 'love the Mystery and abandon the solution'. What a breath of fresh air in this mostly tiresome forum. Sorry folks, but ain't it so? Response: If only man were the doer to ‘abandon’, but the enlightened proclaimed that man is not the doer. To face the truth is very tiresome to the ego.
AAU: L4, Response to: ""Enlightenment is admiration of ...." Response: Okay, admiration is the result of thinking. But understand that thinking happens to man and man does not make thinking happen to him. Understand that primitive man did not think until thinking evolved within man. Understand that man cannot premeditate the aliveness (action, word or thought) within a moment with certainty. Thinking happens to man and man comes to know what he thought only after the thought happens to him and never before thought happen to him. This is the reason why man is uncertain of life. Understand that uncertainty is the certainty of life. Response: To whoever it happens to, he cares, and the caring too happens to him. This is the aliveness that happens to him and he cannot premeditate the aliveness with certainty. So that an understanding could happen to him that they happen to him and he does not make them happen to him. Understand man is not the doer. Response: Dance in life every moment and not just once in rain. Good to know that trees and rain exist for you, but how could you expect me to dance in rain when you have said I am not there. Response: And the heart does not think, and the only place where thinking does not happen is the ‘here and now’ and the ‘here and now’ is the heart and where happiness is.
L4: Well, the best that could happen to AAU is having a wife that once in a while hits him with the frying pan on the head, just to get him out of his mind and make him come to his senses. She might even be the witness to a genuine heartfelt cry.... As for hapiness, it is what we are, no matter what AAU has to say about it, and the only 'thing' that prevents most people from being 'just that', is believing their thoughts and feelings. Let's just let AAU have his fun and meanwhile settle for simply being.
L4: AAU, what a wast of such a beautiful start.... "Okay, admiration is the result of thinking." Alas, directly followed by the standard negation... "BUT...." AAU, forget about the rest, just stay with that first insight. And then: celebrate. Dance in the rain. Or chase your own tail. That never gets you bored anyway!
L4: "Understand man is not the doer." No AAU, there is no point in trying to understand that. It is Truth, and the unfolding those words are pointing to, can be experienced, but not by AAU.
L21: AAU writes: 'To face the truth is very tiresome to the ego'. Well, that's me dismissed, innit? Except.there is no me, and that means no dancing either, sorry L20. But there is effortless resting as awareness, with no doing of it, and that seems enough. :-)
AAU: L4, Response to: "No AAU, admiration is the result of thinking......" Response: Okay, admiration is the result of thinking, and it has been responded to in the previous response. Please refer to the previous response. Response: Happiness surely is an idea and this idea is opposite to the idea sadness which makes both of them dual, and this is relative understanding. This idea happiness comes and goes. Happiness however is a permanent state, and the state where happiness is permanent is the timeless ‘here and now’, and this is absolute understanding. Response: Happiness however has no opposite in the timeless and thoughtless ‘here and now’. Therefore happiness to absolute understanding is not an idea; it is a state of life. Response: Correct, and the timeless and thoughtless ‘here and now’ is the expression of happiness by life. Response: And the timeless and thoughtless ‘here and now’ is the heart, because neither does the heart think nor in the timeless and thoughtless ‘here and now’ thoughts exist. Response: The dance in the rain has been responded to in the previous response. Please refer to it.
L4: L21: "Well that's me being dismissed, innit?" In a way, yes. First of all: AAU dismissis himself, for in spite of his intelligence (of a certain kind) he lacks a dissecting mind, which would show itself by instead of keeping on producing the same sentences over and over again, like a conditioned response, or a stuck grammaphone player, there would be genuine interaction - in the sense of meeting someone where he or she is. Which he is unable of, for this would ask for more than an intellectual reproduction, but needs the truth to be lived. This is the first reason why it is AAU dismissing himself. And, of course, it can't be anything but a projection, which is the second reason. When someone is so productive a writer like AAU, and often quoting someone (Shakar) who himself is quoting / rephrasing (what they call) the sages, it is statistically impossible that now and again he comes up with a beautiful gem. And 'to face the truth is tiresome to the ego", is such a gem. Truth is: ego is a construct of the mind (on both levels of understanding: both a psychological construct by those theorizing about the nature of the human mind, and a construct in each and every individual a.k.a. 'me'). And Truth being that ego is a construct of the mind, this 'bundle of thoughts, ideas, beliefs etc.' that are what is referred to is ego, this assumed identity, which seems to have a will of its own, and a survival instinct, goes all ways to evade that truth - this is what is meant with: to face the truth is tiresome for the ego. There is of course also an effortless way of facing the truth, which boils down to letting go of all those beliefs etc., so to surrender to not knowing, to not having a personal identity, to nothingness. And of course AAU is right when his conditioned response goes like: there is no doer so there is no surrenering. But it is being right in a very unhelpful way.... Meeting someone where he or she is, means: using words that point to the truth and at the same time can be understood by the deluded mind. So there a word like surrendering is very much appropriate. (This quality is also in sentences like 'the gateless gate' - once gone through, it is clear there never was a gate, or the 'pathless path' - once arrived home, it is cleaur one never left home. But only then.) So the best thing happening to someone is, actually being dismissed. But alas, no spiritual teacher, not even Ramana, coud dismiss someone. Every single person has to do 'the work that is no work' herself or himself - again: until grace takes over.
AAU: L21, @L21 L20 writes ‘My friend’s dog…’ Response: AAU repeats once more, he does NOT write about who is right or who is wrong. He points out that the known which is duality (example, right and wrong) is illusory and not real.
L4: You do it again, AAU. I never write about the so-called happiness that has an opposite. The happiness I write about, always is the happiness that is our very nature - read back and verify for yourself: over and over again I use 'hapiness' and 'our true nature' in one sentence. So stop dismissing my words by deliberatly misinterpreting them. The only thing you have proven so far, that it is not Truth that speaks through you, but AAU. And as said before, I am not interested in AAU. Let go of that.
L4: And the hapiness I write about, AAU, is not a state. It is beyond a state. A state comes and goes. The happiness we are does not come and go. The awareness of it may come and go, but just like it is nonsense to say the sun stopped shining just because it is temporarily clouded from view, it is nonsense to say that hapiness is a state.
L4: "AAU repeats once more, he does NOT write about who is right or who is wrong. True - he writes only about HOW everybody is wrong. :-)
AAU: L20, L20 @ L21 and L4 “Very kind and much appreciated. AAU sells absolute understanding as an Koen or paradoxical anecdote...” Response: AAU does not claim that he only has the ability to absolutely understand. AAU understands the explanation shared by Dr.Vijai S Shankar that the known is illusory makes logical and reasonable (general and scientific) sense and the explanations correlate to what the enlightened have proclaimed. Response: The known is illusory to absolute understanding; therefore absolute understanding does not KNOW what it is. Response: There is no yearning, simply because not only yearning is illusory, but also because absolute understanding is not found anywhere, let alone the hills, if it happens it does happen, if it does not it does not happen. Relative understanding plays games but not absolute understanding. Response: Absolute understanding is clarity that life supports faith, albeit illusory. Absolute understanding is not about faith, comparing or surrender, all of which are part and parcel of relative understanding, albeit illusory. Response: No one born has chosen to be born or discussed with their parents to be born. Neither has anyone experienced his birth nor has anyone experienced his death. And no one can premeditate the aliveness within a moment with certainty. This means that you choice to be L20 and happiness is a belief and not a fact of life. To absolute understanding duality and time is illusory backed by common sense, reason (general and scientific) and logic. To enact and experience happiness requires time and duality which both are real to relative understanding, albeit illusory. I AM THAT I AM the ancient truth is a realisation and not a known that could be experienced. The mind too gets tired running round and round with its beliefs which are relative understanding. The mind with absolute understanding is not tired being in the timeless and thoughtless ‘here and now’ every moment.