Enquiry with: Marcus Stegmaier (Germany), Michael Jeffreys (USA) and seekers.:
What does it really mean that “Right“ and “Wrong“ are just illusory thoughts in the mind and not a reality in life?
Michael Jeffreys’ original post on Facebook:
No one has ever done anything wrong. (If you are open to it, feel any resistance that may arise in you from this statement.) Is it possible that RIGHT and WRONG are merely egoic perspectives? Is rain right or wrong? Ask the picnic goers on their first date and you may get one answer, while the farmer may have another. Right and wrong do not exist in reality... they only exist in the mind as mental labels, judgments, strongly held opinions and beliefs. It has significance ONLY in the world of mind, not Life. :) ♥
Seeker A: Yes, but unless you are IN the world of life, such understanding will not be useful. I can start naming examples left and right. And if you are already in that world, then there is no need to state it.
Seeker B: Well, Eckhart Tolle says there is no one at fault, we do the best we know with what we know at the time, but there will still be consequences to our behaviors.
Seeker C: "No one does any wrong, at any time, under any circumstances." Swami Prajnanpad
Seeker S.B.: This is good stuff but I still don't know how to apply it to murderers or people who abuse animals. How can what they're doing not be wrong?
Michael Jeffreys: S.B.: Well we first have to make sure we're both on the same page. Tell me, how do you define the word "wrong."?
S. B.: I think it just means that someone isn't in their right mind. If you tell someone that actually killed a person that they did nothing "wrong"... they might continue to kill because they figure they won't be judged... some kind of judgment is necessary I think. Although I would prefer they get some kind of help getting into their right mind, whether it be through counseling or spirituality.
Michael Jeffreys: And how do you define "right mind" ?
S.B.: Good. How do you define them? :)
Seeker D: When you torture a person it is wrong when you give love at the same person it is right please be simple.
Seeker E: Sorry to say, but I disagree. There are certain situations, where right and wrong are moral and ethical agreements we make with other people. For example. say a couple is married is it right to deceive, manipulate and control, your spouse, so that you can have an extra-marital affair behind their back? Is it wrong to expect your spouse to be faithful? There are rights and wrongs that are part of modern society. The people who can't tell right from wrong, usually wind up criminals in one form or another.
Seeker F: Personally, I don't like the labels right or wrong at all. It is a matter of perception. One could argue the validity of healthy and unhealthy however.
Michael Jeffreys: @ S.B. and Seeker E: as I said in my original post: "Right and wrong do not exist in reality... they only exist in the mind as mental labels, judgments, strongly held opinions and beliefs. It has significance ONLY in the world of mind, not Life." For example, a mother zebra may do everything in her power to stop a lion from eating her baby zebra, but the ONE thing she will never do is complain how "wrong" it was and unfair life is!! ALL is simply LIFE. Either you get this or you don't (and I don't mean this in a snooty way at all, but rather either it "lands" for you or it doesn't. And if it doesn't, no worries, as is there is no right or wrong, only, ever, what IS. :)
S.B.: A lion is just trying to survive by eating. It's not enjoying torturing or murdering another animal... a person probably wouldn't say it was wrong if a lion ate their kid either... maybe they'd say their kid was at the wrong place at the wrong time but I doubt they would really blame the lion. If a human killed their child for the satisfaction of that alone... that is wrong. Yes if it already happened there's no point in dwelling on that. But the person who killed for selfish reasons cannot be trusted and will suffer the consequences of doing such a thing. What do you think should or should not be done with such a person Michael?
Michael Jeffreys: Please keep in mind S.B. that this is just my 2 cents and I am nobody! Yes, people who harm others need to be locked away because the only "rule" that an awakened person lives by, as my friend Jim says is, "Do no harm to others." Getting back to the issue of right and wrong, an awakened person knows these are just concepts, and what is deemed wrong in one society, i.e., showing topless woman on tv (like her in the US) is considered right (normal) in some European countries. The US going to war is obviously considered "right" by our gov., but ask the citizens of Iraq or Afghanistan and most will tell you it was flat out wrong. So, my only point is that right or wrong are perspectives, a scale if you will, and not absolutes. The only thing that is absolute is that which never changes... the non-personal awareness that you are at center and have always been.
S.B.: You're nobody? That's just your ego talking. I think it's egotistical to say you're "no one" just as much as you're "someone". But there's nothing "wrong" with the ego "right"??? ROFL Just my two cents. ;-)
Marcus Stegmaier: “Right and wrong" are not an actuality in life, for the mind does not conduct life! All happens spontaneously as a singular flow of energy, and gets reflected in the mind as "right" and "wrong" in an illusory manner: "right" is minimal "wrong" and "wrong" is minimal "right". Opposites, based on duality, are not two but actually one appearing as two. Crime and imprisonment just happen, not following any rules. The enlightened trusts life for he/she understands that life is safe in life's hands. www.acadun.com
S.B.: Crime and imprisonment don't just "happen". There are rules that people either abide by or break and if they are broken, they get imprisoned. We need rules in a civilized society, otherwise there would be total chaos. You need some "mind" in "life" in order to "live". You can't just be floating around in some spiritual bubble all the time. LOL.
Seeker G: “Relativism, the belief that there is no absolute truth to guide human behavior, is one of the evils of our times, but you won't find absolute truth if you look for it where it cannot be found" Eckart Tolle. That quote means you can know for yourself if something is right or wrong. But you need basic laws that protect people from others who don't know for themselves what's right or wrong.
Marcus Stegmaier, S.B.: the ego, believing in the reality of individuals, actions and causality is shocked by this deep insight into life as it is. These are just signs of a conditioned mind! Life is not action filled as the ego believes. Actions are thoughts in the mind not a reality in life. Life is just one singular flow, just energy, there is no separation in the flow, cause and effect are illusory. The body is an optical illusion of light, the mind is an auditory illusion of sound. Life is a play of light and sound. This understanding does not lead to chaos but reveals the cosmos, i.e. harmony, life already is. www.evolutionofmind.org
Marcus Stegmaier, Seeker G: laws do not protect people from others. Life is precise and the one who is meant to be wounded will be wounded and no force on earth could prevent it. Think hard: There are many who "know what is right" and yet do not act accordingly. This is proof enough to understand that man is not the doer but all happens as it is meant to happen. This includes thoughts of what is "right and wrong", laws and imprisonment too! Life's intelligence manifests an intricate illusion of man being the doer, speaker and thinker, and maintains its illusions as real to the ego. Man is yet to understand the intelligence of life! This has nothing to do with "relativism" as a belief. This is a clear understanding that the mind only reflects as relativity and never the absolute. Beliefs further condition the mind, understanding reveals life as it is. www.acadun.com
S.B.: Okay, I understand. I will just stop doing everything I know as a human. I will stop eating, sleeping, working and living because they are all just illusions. In your eyes, I don't even exist and I should know that you don't either. You are just light and sound and an illusion. LOL. And laws can protect people from others. If you lock up a murderer, that can save a lot more people from being murdered. To say that I have a "conditioned mind" and you don't sounds very egotistical... We all have an ego. Just because you've been "awakened" or are "conscious", that doesn't mean you don't have an ego still. I didn't mean for this to be some debate about who's enlightened and who isn't. I just wondered what people that say there is no "right or wrong" think about people who do (what most in society consider) "bad things".
Marcus Stegmaier: Understand, you NEVER DID anything human, such as eating, sleeping, working, you only APPEARED as such because of the auditory illusion of sound appearing as words and meanings as the mind. The mind is not an instrument to lead life, the mind is just "the soundtrack" to your life which happens spontaneously, uncontrollably and unpredictably as a singular flow of energy. Illusion does not mean it does not exist. It exists, but not in the manner the MIND THINKS it exists. The ego of the awakened is the witnesser, a sophisticated ego. It is a matter of the evolution of life and not the outcome of willpower, therefore the awakened is neither better nor worse than the one who is still to understand the illusory mind. Everybody's understanding of life, incomplete it may be, is therefore right, or better: neither right nor wrong. Do you understand now, why right and wrong are illusory and not real? If not, visit: www.evolutionofmind.org and www.acadun.com
S.B.: I still don't understand. Can I just appear to pay for all of the CD's, DVD's and Books with illusory money? :-D
Marcus Stegmaier, S.B.: you have understood rightly. Money is illusory too and wisdom on the many CD's, DVD's and books too is illusory. Only the illusory could be perceived, not the real. Illusory wisdom points to the illusoriness of the mind - then life as it is reveals itself. Life, then, becomes precious to you, every moment, for there is only one moment and not many! If you are meant to buy it and read it, you will, and no force on earth could prevent it from happening, illusory though it is. The sharing of wisdom is priceless for it reveals that you already have peace, love and happiness and there is no need to search it or buy it in terms of objects and experiences. In fact you probably would save money, illusory money of course.
S.B.: Yes that was the point I was making. I don't need to buy wisdom. I already have it. And life is precious to me because I see it as "real" and not an "illusion". :)
Marcus Stegmaier: This is the knowledge that has happened to you so far, it is not wisdom. Mental life, to the ego, appears sometimes precious and sometimes not, because it is believed to be real. Honesty is the first step towards wisdom. The ego does not see but just thinks. Therefore mind is an illusion and not a reality. Wisdom reveals, to the witnesser, that life is always precious as the TIMELESS NOW.
S.B.: Those are your "beliefs". These are mine. We are no different. We just have different opinions. You are speaking with your mind and ego just as much as I am. :)
Marcus Stegmaier: Wisdom is not an opinion but the understanding that opinions are illusory and not real. www.acadun.com. Please follow the “Academy of Absolute Understanding” on Facebook!