Conversation: Marcus Stegmaier with X

X: Hi. All is well over here and hoping all is well with you and your family. How is Dr. Shankar doing ?

Marcus: Thanks for asking. We are all fine, and Dr. Shankar is still here.  

X: Was pondering this morning as it happens often and have a few questions for you if you don't mind. - The world is illusory so that would include even science. So when Dr. Shankar quotes from various scientific sources I take it that he quotes not taking science as being real or the truth at all correct ? So the illusion being science is quoted to disprove or prove the illusion right ? 

Marcus: Yes, science is not real but illusory, too. As the sages point out the illusory to be illusory, so does science and the sages are as illusory as science. Only the illusory points out its own illusoriness, not anything real does. Proof is illusory too, so science is not quoted to prove of disprove, but to help man understand beyond proof or disproof. 

X: Science today for example will say that there is the speed of light at a certain speed as fact. Science also says that the universe is expanding which are theories which tomorrow be shown to be false possibly. Science begins with the assumption that the universe is made up of matter and that matter is actual or real. That the universe came to be. Christian scientists will say God created the universe as non Christian scientists will say the universe just exploded into existence ( big bang). That all the materials and time and space were there which science cannot explain how it got there or how God showed up except to say that God is the uncaused.  So can you briefly explain how science or examples of the illusion in science. All there is is a play of light and sound but that is also an illusion right ? Thanks.

Marcus: Science too points out today that time and matter is illusory, and that all there is is one singular energy making appearance as the world, man and mind. Science has "proven" that man is not the doer, speaker and thinker by showing that what man thinks is already in the "past", because life is much faster than thought and, therefore, experience of any kind could not catch the "Now". 

X: Another thing is that scientists will say that when we look at the sky at night and gaze at the stars , we are seeing the past. This is taught in schools even that many stars are billions of miles away and figuring in the speed of light we are seeing the stars as they were even millions of years ago as it takes so long for the light to reach us. The past doesn't exist except in thought so this can't be true correct ? How would you explain this paradox. Also the mystery of seeing the stars so far way and that even time and space is an illusion has my head scratching. Thanks again.
Marcus: Yes, it is a paradox, life is a mystery. Past, present and future exist, but not as real - they are a transformation of sound in man's mind, not a reality. The mystery could not be explained, only the thinking process could be explained and explained to be illusory. The mystery is to be lived when the mind is understood completely as illusory. 

X: As I continue to read and listen over and over again to Dr. Shankar's works, I have found that the understanding deepens even after quite a few listens and readings. Does this continue to happen or is there an end to that ? It is amazing how after listening, I for the most part couldn't tell you what I have heard or read but during it some movement ( understanding ) happens that I cannot explain. Very strange.
Marcus: Neither has life a beginning and an end, nor has understanding. Yet, there is complete understanding when cause and effect do not appear real anymore and life gets witnessed as a flow instead of being thought of as a sum of events. 

X: The simple deepening of understanding is simply realizing that man is not the doer, thinker or speaker. And that life simply happens. And that what happens is not personal at all because there is no individual.That no effort is required and control is a myth. So that rules out karma and the concept that there is a personal God who has a personal relationship with each and every one of us who believe in Him. A God who rewards and punishes and favors a group over another etc. Even God is an illusion. Does that mean God exists but not in the way the mind says ?

Marcus: For the witnesser "God" is just a word for "life as it is". And life is singular, therefore the mind cannot think about life/god in an accurate way because the mind thinks in parts as the mind's function is to divide and analyze, not to understand life as "one". 

X: One more ( smile). So the only thing that is real is this aliveness or being correct ? And that cannot be known. This is our true nature and the only truth is that there is this awareness or presence of some sort that cannot be known or understood by the mind. And this is real which means eternal without beginning or end. This is where there could be some clarity as Dr. Shankar has said that we were not born but are told we are born but we never experienced our birth. Isn't this the same with our true nature or is it a thought as well ? For example I know that there is awareness. Awareness of thoughts, of feelings that come and go. An aliveness that is here and now. But that even goes away at deep sleep. And upon awakening in the morning I could only know that I was asleep after the fact. But during the sleep awareness that I am sleeping isn't there because the mind is dormant. I could only know I am aware through the mind in the form of a thought. A bit hairy (smile).

Marcus: In deep sleep there is awareness without consciousness and thought. Yet, you are alive! This aliveness - not the thoughts of the waking/dream-state - is awareness or "our true nature". 

Anyway I hope this wasn't too much for you Marcus. I appreciate your time and sharing with me.
Marcus: You're welcome.